Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[Elsie]

The ‘straight and narrow path’ is a metaphor for the path leading to exaltation.

What, exactly, IS 'exaltation'?

[colorcountry]

But, oh, no, he wants to hang around, blab his opinions, make his wife feel embarrassed, and harass people. Go away, already. If he ever wants to come back, and stop his silly babbling, he’ll be welcomed with open arms.

This is so incorrect, it's funny. There was no Federal law prohibiting polygamy in Joseph Smith's day, (those came a short time later - prompted precisely because of the Mormons), but every State had laws against adultery.

Adultery was defined as a man having sex with a woman other than his wife (singular). Just as todays laws say nothing specifically about gay marriage, it has always been prohibited (until the time that we are forced to address it).

Mormons were forced from State to State during Joseph Smith's time, not because they were jealous of his "revelation," but because of the practice of the aberrant multiple 'wives.'

[Elsie]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6. if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I read it as they will be nothing else after Christ’s sacrifice.

If you do not hold on to THAT fact, then there is nothing else for you.

[Elsie]

Because I’m an expert on the subject of the LDS Church.P>Well, alrighty then!

[Elsie]

Because I’m an expert on the subject of the LDS Church.P>Well, alrighty then!

---

Warren Jeffs group has a 'difference of opinion' over whether polygamy was REALLY abolished by GOD, and yet THESE folks don't even get the courtesy of being called 'Mormons' by LDS headquarters in SLC.

[Elsie]

Know you KNOW that our postition is badly illustrated in this, so called, chart!

It’s FULL of distortions and lies!!

We’ve proved this on other threads where we have corrected your side’s aberrations.

Don’t MAKE me have to point you to it!!!

—MormonDude(Constantly misunderstood!)

[Elsie]

You’re so charming when you take things out of context, GF!

See!!!

I told you; you Think yer SlyFoXx!

--MormmonDude(High fives to all my buds!!!)

[colorcountry]

Oops this was the part of your post I was addressing In that day, there was no law in the United States against polygamy.

The old copy of a paste was still on my clipboard...< embarrassed>

[Elsie]

Paul briefly mentions three kingdoms of glory in 1Cor15:40-43. Modern revelation gives more detail on it.

 

1 Corinthians 15:40-43

 40.  There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
 41.  The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
 42.  So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
 43.  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
 44.  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.   If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 

 

HUH???

 

Were you perhaps thinking of this??

 

 

2 Corinthians 12

 1.  I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
 2.  I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

[Elsie]

The nation made polygamy illegal after Smith’s time.

Uh...

Wasn't it 'illegal' in the STATES?

---

Bigamy is the crime of marrying while an undivorced spouse from a valid prior marriage is living. Because many prominent nineteenth-century Mormon men became polygamists under Church mandate, both their vulnerability to prosecution for bigamy and the legal attacks on the Church and its members for supporting plural marriage created a crisis for Mormonism during the 1870s and 1880s.

Bigamy was recognized as an offense by the early English ecclesiastical courts, which considered it an affront to the marriage Sacrament. Parliament enacted a statute in 1604 that made bigamy a felony cognizable in the English common law courts. After American independence, the states adopted antibigamy laws, but they received little attention until the nineteenth century in Utah.

The United States government has constitutional power to enact laws governing territories, and under that authority Congress enacted the Morrill Act (1862), making bigamy in a territory a crime punishable by a fine and five years in prison. The statute was upheld in Reynolds v. United States (1879), although the defendant argued that the law violated the First Amendment guarantee of the free exercise of religion.

Few Mormons were prosecuted for bigamy because the government had difficulty obtaining testimony about plural wedding ceremonies. Rather, they were charged with bigamous cohabitation, a misdemeanor created by the Edmunds Act (1882). Proving cohabitation was easy enough, and over 1,300 Latter-day Saints were jailed as "cohabs" in the 1880s.

Antipolygamy legislation also put pressure on the Church by threatening members' civil rights and Church property rights. The Edmunds Act barred persons living in polygamy from jury service, public office, and voting. The Edmunds-Tucker Act (1887) disincorporated both the Church and the Perpetual Emigrating Fund on the ground that they fostered polygamy. Furthermore, it authorized seizure of Church real estate not directly used for religious purposes, and acquired in excess of a $50,000 limitation imposed by the Morrill Act. In the Idaho Territory a test oath adopted in 1885 was used to ban all Mormons (and former Mormons) from voting because of the Church's position on polygamy.

In 1890 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the seizure of Church property under the Edmunds-Tucker Act in The Late Corporation of the Mormon Church v. United States and the Idaho test oath in Davis v. Beason, it became clear that plural marriage was leading toward the economic and political destruction of the Church. Shortly after these decisions, a revelation was received by President Wilford Woodruff, who then withdrew the requirement for worthy males to take plural wives and announced the manifesto, formally stating his counsel to Latter-day Saints to abide by antibigamy laws (see D&C Official Declaration—1). The Manifesto ended the legal confrontation between the U.S. government and the Church.

Congress passed a final federal antibigamy provision in 1892, which excluded polygamists from immigration into the United States. This exclusion remains part of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Code.

 

 

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/plural_marriage/Legislation_EOM.htm

[Utah Girl]

How about polygamy in the Old Testament? David was given permission to have many wives and he was deemed to be righteous by the Lord and by Nathan, the prophet at that time. It was only when David took on wives that weren't permitted by the Lord that it was wrong. From the Old Testament:

2 Samuel 12: 7,8:
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

And how about Abraham? From Genesis 25:1-6

1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 ¶ And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Later in the Old Testament, Abraham is called a friend of God, ((2 Chron. 20:7, Isaiah 41:8.) In the New Testament, Christ himself spoke respectfully of Abraham ((Matt. 8:11, 22:31-32; Mark 12:26; Like 16:23-30, 20:37; John 8:39,56). And it was after the angel of the Lord stayed Abraham's hand and promised Abraham that his seed would be more numerous than the grains of sand. From Genesis 22:10-16:

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Isaac was not Abraham's firstborn child, he had another with Hagar (Ishmael.)

[Elsie]

So many here think all you have to do as just believe you do not have to keep the Commandments because so many of you think it is impossible so why try!

Yet as one search the scriptures one see many things differently as some pick choose what ever seems to valid ones life style to get aways with it!

 

 

HMMmm...

Acts 15

 1.  Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
 2.  This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
 3.  The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.
 4.  When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
 5.  Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
 6.  The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
 7.  After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
 8.  God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
 9.  He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
 10.  Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
 11.  No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
 12.  The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
 13.  When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me.
 14.  Simon  has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.
 15.  The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
 16.  "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
 17.  that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
 18.  that have been known for ages.
 19.  "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
 20.  Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
 21.  For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
 22.  Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.
 23.  With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
 24.  We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
 25.  So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul--
 26.  men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 27.  Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
 28.  It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
 29.  You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
 30.  The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter.
 31.  The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.
 32.  Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers.
 33.  After spending some time there, they were sent off by the brothers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them.
 35.  But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
 36.  Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing."
 37.  Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them,
 38.  but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work.
 39.  They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,
 40.  but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord.
 41.  He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

[Elsie]

David was given permission to have many wives and he was deemed to be righteous by the Lord and by Nathan, the prophet at that time. It was only when David took on wives that weren't permitted by the Lord that it was wrong. From the Old Testament:

Uhhh... not exactly.

David took ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE.

[Utah Girl]

Yes, he did, after the Lord gave him permission through Nathan, the prophet at that time to have multiple wives. Not only that, it says in the OT,

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom,..

That was David's downfall, coveting another man's wife, sending Uriah into battle so he would be killed and then taking Uriah's wife. He had so many other wives, but wanted that which he couldn't have.

[tantiboh]

~”Smith had sex with wives of other men. That is adultery under any standard; not just polygamy.”~

Smith was -sealed- to wives of other men. (And it is fundamental to this discussion to understand the difference between sealing and marriage.) It’s not clear to me as to why; but there were purely dynastic arrangements made in some cases. Whether or not there was sexual intimacy between Smith and wives of other men is not substantiated by reliable evidence. We have a few secondhand accounts and claims, but no more.

The question then becomes, if there is no sexual intimacy in the relationship, is it adultery?

[tantiboh]

~”Sex with multiple women IS adultery. It doesn’t matter if it is legal or state law.”~

Abraham the adulterer? He’s not the only holy man we can turn to as an example. Interesting that you dismiss the validity of the patriarchs.

Do not impose your view of morality on God. They may be similar, but our understanding as humans is not always complete.

[tantiboh]

Wait a second. I say, “In that day, there was no law in the United States against polygamy.”

You say, “This is so incorrect, it’s funny. There was no Federal law prohibiting polygamy in Joseph Smith’s day...”

Please, you’re confusing me.

~”...but every State had laws against adultery.”~

Fine. Smith has multiple wives. Adultery is sex -outside- of legal marriage, however that marriage is defined. Your subsequent statement is today’s definition - not that of 150 years ago. I’m sorry, it just doesn’t wash.

[colorcountry]

Your fooling yourself tant.

Do you really want to find out what the public outcry was against the polygamy of Mormonism. It’s all there - - all the historical documents you ever wished to read.

BTW there WERE State laws that prohibited polygamy during Joseph Smith’s time. Are you trying to be obtuse by saying “there was no “federal” law?

[colorcountry]

tanti,

I’m sorry to tell you this, but yes Abraham WAS an adulterer. Hagar was his wife’s handmaiden and NOT his wife. That IS the very definition of adultery.

[MHGinTN]

On the one hand the Mormonism Apologists claim Smith married other men's wives 'but it is not proven that he had sex with them' ... and they sweep aside as inconvenient the testimonies and historic records which point to the uproar over his having sex with other men's wives. Then, in the next breath, they cite that the patriarchs had multiple wives and wink at the fact that these patriarchs had children with these other wives ... the apologists even stumble around over the truth that throughout Biblical related history (see Abraham and Sarah down in Egypt and Ab telling Sarah to say she is his sister and the king down there expelling him from the land because he nearly cause the king to commit adultery!) taking to wife the wife of another living man IS adultery even without sex because it assaults the vows of the first marriage and is addressed in the Ten Commandments! Vows are sacred, except where their false prophet violates them by his own authority which he claims comes from God ... but of course that would mean God contradicts Himself, which He never does.

We've even seen the Mormonism Apologists try to dissemble the scriptures related to Heaven, the 'no giving in marriage', purposely misstating the Bible teaching that there will be no marriage in Heaven or giving in marriage (which is clearly referring to sex in marriage as confirmed by Paul in his letters and Jesus in Matthew regarding the question of a woman married to several brothers in succession (always after the husband died and she married a surviving brother!).

The Mormonism problem is, when you lie and fabricate 'a truth' not substantiated by God's Word, you have to keep changing your tune to meet the revealed facts and necessity to excuse the flaws of men. To believe their arguments you have to suspend credulity and believe the historic records and sworn testimonies of people who knew Smith intimately are but a pack of lies. Occam's Razor tells me Smith was an adulterer who tried to give himself authority to behave any way he chose, just as he tried to rewrite the King James Bible to include fabricated prophecies of his 'coming in these latter days'!

With every strained argument to defend this Smith, the disgust level rises, not so much at the deluded apologists as at the religion built so precariously on lies and fabrications and false prophecies and fantasy 'translations', all leading men and women into perdition believing they are working their way to God and godhood! And we are supposed to believe a man running for president of this nation who is a priest in that religion is smart enough to be president yet cannot discern the wrongness of Mormonism! Nope, can't vote such a man into nominee status. Wouldn't be prudent and wouldn't be right to promote such an deluded man to rule over US.