Posted on 08/12/2007 4:03:13 PM PDT by NYer
Ping!
yep. things are so much better now that there are no rules for dress and manners are unkown. tattoos, piecings and skin shows for all.
And television! What a gift to the American family, and, ergo to the world!
Ping!
It’s interesting what different experiences people have had. This gentleman was not just “Pentecostal” - even Catholics can be “Pentecostal,” in the general sense - but “Oneness Pentecostal,” rejecting the dogma of the Trinity. Very serious and meaningful theological issues in this conversion.
pingity ping
Welcome to Rusty Tisdale! Wonderful story of conversion and thanks for posting it.
I wonder if Rusty will stay a Catholic.
From reading the Early Church Fathers to this>
**My views were changing, and I was quickly leaning toward a more hopeful view of Roman Catholicism.**
What a great journey he relates. God bless him!
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
How I led Catholics Out of the Church [Steve Wood]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
“I wonder if Rusty will stay a Catholic.”
That is a very good question.
Reading his story, I felt sympathy for him, but also I felt uneasy about several features of his personality. He seems to have a tendency toward depression, and also always seeking answers that lead him off into new pastures.
Notice how he tends towards what AA terms the “geographic solution”, whenever his problems get overwhelming, he moves somewhere else. But then ... the problems start up again. Also, note that the Orthodox priest was unwilling to baptise him, but suggested that he wait. This proved a sound suggestion, as he soon gave up on the Orthodox Church, but I wonder what the Priest observed which led him to that conclusion.
Oh man (sigh).
This poor chap moves from one works righteousness church to another continually seeking the right experience to validate his worthiness.
Prayerfully he one day rests in Christ’s perfect active and passive obedience and receives the peace that his labors cannot fulfill.
In the interests of not just taking every dialectical fist to the chops and of saying that the question of works righteousness is not, IMHO, as either-or as some seem to think it is, I'd like to quote from a reading in the "Office of Readings" for today -- which is a big day for us Calflicks:
I repeat, it is owing to his favor that salvation is yours through faith. This is not your own doing, it is God's gift; neither is it a reward for anything you have accomplished, so let no one pride himself on it. We are truly his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to lead the life of good deeds which God prepared for us in advance.Grace -- the gift that keeps on giving! Shaken down, pressed together, running over.Ephesians 2:8-10
An anti-Trinitarian? I’m glad the guy got saved!
So he has taken the bait. But it is still in question whether he will spit out the hook or whether our Lord will set it firmly and reel him in.
“I like the phrase “active and passive obedience” — all the more as I consider that at the root of “obedience” is “to listen intently”.”
Dawg,
I’m happy you like the phrase yet I get the impression that we have different conceptions as to the significance of the phrase especially as it relates to Christ’s active obedience. No doubt we agree, along with most of Christendom, that Christ’s passive obedience was the propitiation for our disobedience.
If Christ’s passive obedience carried such a great cosmic significance would it not follow that his active obedience carries a similar cosmic significance? Surely his active obedience provides the supreme moral example and as such reveals the nature of God but what, if any, cosmic significance was effectuated by Christ fulfilling the law?
That answer can be found in the meta-narrative of Scripture. Paul’s reference to Christ as the 2nd Adam pulls us back to the garden narrative and helps us see what cosmic significance the 1st Adams probationary testing and subsequent failure resulted in. If the kin of the 1st Adam were accredited for the actions of the head of the family and become enemies with the Father would it not follow that the kin of the 2nd Adam, in like manner, be accredited for the actions of the head of the family? Yes, I believe that follows and is an essential element in the meta-narrative of Scripture. So Christ’s obedience not only satisfies the wrath of the Father because of our kinship with the 1st Adam , but is also accredited to his kin and we become friends with the Father because of the actions of the head of the family.
So then, let’s reexamine Rusty’s case. Since faith is what brings us into kinship with the 2nd Adam the question naturally arises as to how we can one be assured that ones faith truly puts us in the family. But let’s back up and consider how one can be assured that they are in the 1st Adam’s family. In Rusty’s case, as with most works-righteousness Christians, he would introspectively and internally examine his experiences as the basis for belief and furthermore make sure that those experiences are an adequate basis for his belief. So Rusty might examine his experiences as a human and examine the experiences of Adam and be assured that he is in fact a kin of Adam. For Rusty to be assured of faith he cannot simply receive and rest upon Christ but must be aware of what experiences result from faith and furthermore those experiences are adequate for a true faith. As we can see from the above, Rusty seems to be striving to find the experience that is adequate to justify his belief and give him assurance.
Let me propose, because the nature of faith is transcendent, that an externalist view of faith provides greater assurance. In this case the externalist would only need to understand the concepts of faith and that there are no factors that would undermine those concepts. For the externalist one understands the concepts of the Gospel through the call of the Spirit and election in Christ and as such receives and rests upon Christ. As long as their faith is of this type they can be assured it is a true faith not relying upon experience for assurance but rather experience bolsters faith as long as it does not undermine the concepts.
I THINK I'm with you right up to the paragraph beginning "So then, ..."
Since faith is what brings us into kinship with the 2nd Adam the question naturally arises as to how we can one be assured that ones faith truly puts us in the family.Formally, I'll dispute the "naturally". (That's almost a joke, okay?)
What I mean is the question of "assurance" or even of "getting into heaven" or of "avoiding going to hell" has NOT been on my mind for, lo, these many decades. And, especially, I don't go to confession or rattle my bedes or pray before the Tabernacle or engage in all the other bizarre cultic calflick practices to "get into heaven" but because I'm in love. Excuse the sappiness, but I don't know how else to say it.
as with most works-righteousness Christians
You've done a survey? ;-)
But overall I agree. As long a one thinks one's relationship with Christ depends on one's deeds and experiences, one runs the risk of the kind of restless unease which in the past has prompted Rusty to pull up his stakes and sojourn in yet another congregation. ("That last act of charity was not really pure enough, that last ecstasy was not enough of a transport ...) Good Lord, deliver us from such assessments!
Now I get the impression that you'd think that Rusty was in the wrong place now, while I'd think he was in the right place, but for the wrong reason. What you and I can do together is hold Rusty up to the Lord and ask for healing and balm for his writhing and unquiet soul. And then let the chips fall where they may.
My own experience is that I do everything badly and for the wrong reason and I rarely have any kind of "experience" -- and as for tongues, maybe a little English -- Southern, Yankee, and England English? I'm working on Valley-speak, but it's SEW, like, y'know, banal, omyGAWD!
Um, uh, seriously, What can I say? A long time ago in another life I heard someone say,"The Lord has put away all your sins," and I realized those words were spoken to ME and about MY sins, and my life has been different for the subsequent 36 years. And "through many dangers, toils, and snares," ... well, here I am.
“Now I get the impression that you’d think that Rusty was in the wrong place now, while I’d think he was in the right place, but for the wrong reason.”
The wrong reason is certainly correct but can we blame Rusty since the experience of time travel associated with the re-presentation is so highly acclaimed in that place. No, I don’t believe we can blame Rusty but the place is certainly accountable for feeding Rusty’s seemingly insatiable need for adequate experience.
So yes, the place is important. If the place has a misconception of revelation and uses experience as the ground of faith then the communicant will have a difficult time resting upon Christ, although not impossible,
I'm impressed that you get the "re-presentation" side of the sacrifice. And clearly we disagree about revelation. But I would disagree with the "experience" in what you say -- in the sense that I don't often have any sense of time travel, or of much else along those lines in the Mass. In my view "experiences" as such, are more in the "consolation" side of things, not to be expected but enjoyed when you get 'em.
This suggests to moi that I'm not understanding what you are saying about experience. I would have said that the whole "Charismatic" deal is experience-oriented. The Catholic deal is more in what my Zen buddies would call "practice", maybe 'askesis' would be a good word.
And of course I hasten add NOT askesis in order to be saved but to "live into" (and you may fer shur ask me what I mean by that, if anything, if it's not clear) being saved. That is, I don't "say my prayers" to impress God or get an entry on the good side of the ledger. I say them because doing so is one of the ways I can say,"I love you too," to God.
Dawg, I'm sure you'd agree that both are experiences. The Charismatic experience is generally euphoric in the sense of hyper-joy while the Romanist experience is euphoric in the sense of self-denial. The point is that if any subjective experience is the ground upon which your faith is based, instead of the historical facts of Christ's life and death, then that faith will be based upon the shifting sands of the latest experiences and like any addict the latest experience with the same church never quite measures up to the the first "high" so he goes looking for the new church (drug) by which he can experience a greater euphoria.
So we have on the one hand the Romanist congregation selling tradition as experience with its concomitant rituals while the core of the Borg is putridly rotten and its corporate self-defense mechanisms kicked in to protect the Borg with whatever Machiavellian means available and to hell with ethics.
On the other hand we have the broader Evangelical community with it's secular prosperity and therapeutic gospel selling the gospel of the American dream of spiritual entreprenuerialship and if you visualize the right experience it may lead to success and even perhaps a spot on TBN.
And when people finally overdose on "Christian experience" it sometimes leads to death of faith as this truly sad story indicates
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