Posted on 08/05/2007 9:14:44 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
PARIS — Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, a Jew who converted to Catholicism and rose through church hierarchy to become one of the most influential Roman Catholic figures in France, died Sunday, the Paris archbishop's office said. He was 80.
Lustiger _ whose Polish immigrant mother died in the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz _ was archbishop of Paris for 24 years before stepping down in 2005 at the age of 78. He died in a hospice in Paris, the archbishop's office said.
A cause of death was not immediately provided, but Lustiger had said in April that he was being treated for a "grave illness."
For years, Lustiger was the public face of the church in mainly Roman Catholic France, speaking out on critical issues and serving as a voice of calm in tumultuous times. He appeared to have perfectly synthesized his Jewish heritage with his chosen faith.
"Christianity is the fruit of Judaism," he once said.
"For me, it was never for an instant a question of denying my Jewish identity. On the contrary," he said in "Le Choix de Dieu" (The Choice of God), conversations published in 1987.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
I remember some fundamentalist wackos were out there predicting that Cardinal Lustiger would become pope and then reveal himself as either the Anti-Christ or his servant. You see, he had all these strikes against him: Jew, Catholic, European.
(sigh)
Back to the drawing board for the wackos.
May God bring his loyal servant, Cardinal Lustiger, who suffered scorn from his fellow Jews and others for choosing Christ and His Church, home to his heavenly reward. Amen.
Oh, dear! Rest in peace, Cardinal.
As you well know, the vast majority of Fundamentalists are pro-Jewish (unlike Catholics). You are both dishonest and a bigot.
You have a lot of nerve considering that you were just apologizing for an anti-Semitic Latin American clergyman on another thread.
You wrote:
“As you well know, the vast majority of Fundamentalists are pro-Jewish (unlike Catholics). You are both dishonest and a bigot.”
Remember a few years ago when Jerry Falwell said the Anti-Christ would be a Jew? I have no doubt that most fundamentalists are pro-Jewish. I am pro-Christian first, but I have nothing against being pro-Jewish. Many fundamentalists believe the Anti-Christ will be someone who is Jewish (that way he can claim to be the messiah). I am neither dishonest nor am I a bigot.
A former Catholic, now a Zen Buddhist put it this way about Lustiger:
“Everyday he has to face many who believe he is a threat. The lunatic Christian fringe believes Cardinal Lustiger is more than that: they consider him the Antichrist. Indeed— the Antichrist who offered his life in exchange for the war’s end. The Antichrist who then gave his entire life to the service of others. The Antichrist who practices his Christianity by acknowledging his Jewish roots. The Antichrist who has the courage to proclaim what he really believes. The Antichrist who rushes to support human rights. The Antichrist who trembles beneath the Lord. The Antichrist who wants only peace— and has begged God to let him die before the pope does, so that he will not have to run the risk of filling the Shoes of the Fisherman. The Antichrist who is a brave man of action and service, yet still pines for his mother, long since perished in the ovens of Auschwitz. That, my friends, is an Antichrist I’ll take any day.”
Here a fundamentalist pastor even adds up Lustiger’s name to get 666:
“Could Archbishop Cardinal Lustiger be the Antichrist? Could he be the next Pope? I don’t know! But his filling both of these offices is certainly within the realm of possibility. Only time will tell. But while we are waiting for further developments, let me give you one more fact to consider.
“From ancient times there has existed a numerical system called “The Devil’s Alphabet” by its adherents [Satanists; witches; New Agers; etc.]. This numerical system assigns to each letter of the alphabet a value of six in ascending and accumulative order. Now let’s find the numerical value of Cardinal Lustiger’s name, using this system.
L = 72 U = 126 S = 114 T = 120 I = 54 G = 42 E = 30 R = 108 Total = 666
“Folks, figure it out for yourself. The Word of God plainly states that the “number of the beast” can be counted, and that it is “the number of a man,” Revelation 13:18. Who is more qualified, or a better candidate, to be the next Pope, and possibly the Antichrist, than this Catholic Jewish Cardinal; Jean-Marie Lustiger? Think about it!”
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2005/fmriley44.htm
You wrote:
“You have a lot of nerve considering that you were just apologizing for an anti-Semitic Latin American clergyman on another thread.”
1) I didn’t apologize for anyone. I asked a question.
2) You have a lot of nerve to call me a bigot when I can so easily back up what I said and just did.
3) You have a lot of nerve to lie and claim I apologized for anyone about anything when I didn’t do any such thing.
Remember this: I was right. Lustiger was attacked for being Jewish. He was also attacked as a possible anti-Christ by fundamentalists. I just proved it. I was right. You were wrong. And none of that stopped you for one second from shooting your mouth off. In the future, it would behoove you to at least do some research (don’t you think?) before you stick your foot in your mouth. I say all of this in the spirit of fraternal correction. You need some.
**Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, a Jew who converted to Catholicism and rose through church hierarchy to become one of the most influential Roman Catholic figures in France,**
Amzing conversion, no doubt, to all those around him at that time.
I very much resent, and will continue to resent, dishonest scapegoating of Fundamentalist Protestants by other faith traditions who have their own bigots and "bumpkins."
The primary meaning of the word "fundamentalist" is one who accepts the factual (as opposed to purely allegorical) nature of religious truth. Since Fundamentalist Protestants and conservative Catholics share so many positions it is heartbreaking to see Catholics still attacking their Fundamentalist counterparts for nothing more than believing that the Biblical text is factually true. What would your St. Jerome think of that???
You wrote:
“Your singling out of “fundamentalist wackos” who are anti-Catholic as well as anti-Jewish was a fundamentally dishonest way of putting down an entire faith tradition by implying that they are mentally imbalanced. I stand by that.”
I was not dishonest in the least. The simple fact is that it was fundamentalists who principally cast Lustiger as the anti-Christ. Also, to do such a thing is clearly the work of a wacko no matter what denominational background.
Are you going to tell me that those who believed Lustiger was the anti-Christ were NOT wackos?
“It’s also an excellent way of pretending that there aren’t plenty of Catholic wackos around. They can be found everywhere on the Internet.”
Whoe is pretending here? Not me. I don’t doubt for a second that there are Catholic wackos.
“I very much resent, and will continue to resent, dishonest scapegoating of Fundamentalist Protestants by other faith traditions who have their own bigots and “bumpkins.” “
So you are claiming the title of ‘wacko’ as your own? If you are not, then I didn’t mention you and you have no complaint. If you are claiming ‘wacko’ as applying to you, then it doesn’t matter if you resent it or not. Make your choice. Did you believe Lustiger was the anti-Christ? Then you were a wacko whether you resent it or not.
“The primary meaning of the word “fundamentalist” is one who accepts the factual (as opposed to purely allegorical) nature of religious truth. Since Fundamentalist Protestants and conservative Catholics share so many positions it is heartbreaking to see Catholics still attacking their Fundamentalist counterparts for nothing more than believing that the Biblical text is factually true. What would your St. Jerome think of that???”
St. Jerome would think any man who believed Lustiger is the anti-Christ was a wacko. I noticed how you miscast everything in your post here and assiduously avoiding mentioning the fact that this was all about considering Lustiger the anti-Christ. If you consider Cardinal Lustiger was the anti-Christ then you’re a wacko. I will not lose sleep over that fact if it applies to you. If it doesn’t, then I still won’t sleep over it because nothing I said applied to you.
Make up your mind. The choice is yours.
If you still haven't gotten it, I'm not a chr*stian at all! I hope that satisfies you.
Your use of the term "Fundamentalist" in the phrase "Fundamentalist wackos" was to discredit the entire Fundamentalist Protestant religion, especially its loyalty to the factual truth of the Bible. If someone had called someone a "Catholic wacko" you and every other Catholic on this forum would have screamed like Cromwell was after you.
You wrote:
“Since you seem very ignorant of my position....”
Whoa, whoa, whoa! What makes you think I am remotely interested in you position on anything? My original post was not about you. My gosh, do you think this is all about you? I posted about Cardinal Lustiger being thought of as the anti-Christ by fundamentalist wackos. I didn’t post that about you.
“... let me assure you that I don’t believe Cardinal Lustiger was the “anti-christ” because there is no such thing. And ironically, if there were, the only so-called “Jewish messiah” who ever demanded to be worshipped over and above anything called G-d was your own J*sus, which means if there were such a thing he’d have been it!!!
If you still haven’t gotten it, I’m not a chr*stian at all! I hope that satisfies you.”
All you are doing is showing me (and everyone else) that there is even less reason for you to be ranting nonsensically at me.
“Your use of the term “Fundamentalist” in the phrase “Fundamentalist wackos” was to discredit the entire Fundamentalist Protestant religion, especially its loyalty to the factual truth of the Bible.”
Completely wrong. 1) I did not try to discredit Fundy wackos because of the their fidelity to the factual truth of the Bible. 2) I do not believe that fundy wackos are loyal to the factual truth of the Bible. 3) fundy wackos do enough to discredit themselves when they come up with things like Lustiger being the anti-Christ. 4) there is no such thing as the “Fundamentalist Protestant religion.
“If someone had called someone a “Catholic wacko” you and every other Catholic on this forum would have screamed like Cromwell was after you.”
No, actually I wouldn’t. I would chide him, but I wouldn’t take it too seriously because I know his opinion can’t possibly have much worth. I don’t think yours does either.
NEXT!
Your use of the term "fundamentalist" or "fundy" in conjunction with the word "wacko" simply shows you for the bigot you are. I'd demand you apologize but I know you wouldn't do it. It also shows that you respect (and perhaps agree with) liberal, non-Fundamentalist Protestants.
At least "fundy wackos," unlike "the one true church," don't say the Bible is full of errors and mistakes and is adapted from Babylonian mythology!
There are actually a large number of self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christians who are lunatics, ZC.
One of them, Peter Rucker, indeed considers any text of the Bible besides the KJV to be a corrupt "Alexandrian-Babylonian" text - and by this he means not only the NRSV but also the Hebrew text of the Tanakh. As far as he is concerned, Orthodox Jews who study Tanakh in Hebrew worship a false deity using a text composed by Satan.
Rucker has a good number of followers too - he is not a lone nutjob.
Jack Chick also falls into this category, as does Dave Hunt.
And there are Catholic wackos too, like Robert Sungenis and William Richardson and Solange Hertz and Nicholas Gruner.
"Fundamentalist" does not mean "sola scriptura." "Sola scriptura" is a doctrine of Protestantism, not "Fundamentalist Protestantism." Yet when Catholic or Orthodox chr*stians want to attack sola scriptura they always identify it as "Fundamentalist" rather than "Protestant." Why is this???
A "Fundamentalist Protestant" is a Protestant who still adheres to Protestantism, just as (one would assume) a Fundamentalist Catholic, Fundamentalist Jew, Fundamentalist Orthodox, Fundamentalist moslem, or Fundamentalist sikh would simply identify a traditionalist member of those religions.
This is how Fundamentalist Protestants understand the term. To them "fundamentalist" is simply a synonym of "conservative," "traditional," or "orthodox" (small-o). When Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, etc., leave "Protestantism" unscathed and instead attack "fundamentalism" per se it sounds as if they are attacking it for not selling out to modernism. Is that how Catholics want to be perceived?
Keating did not entitle his book Catholicism and Protestantism but Catholicism and Fundamentalism (ie, contrasting Catholicism with simply conservatism).
Every time I hear or read of some non-Protestant criticizing "Fundamentalism" rather than "Protestantism" the message I get is "if they'd just admit the Bible is full of crap they could keep their Protestant beliefs and we wouldn't have any problem with them."
Unfortunately, "fundamentalism" for some reason also has a bit of an ethno-cultural connotation, since Black Protestants, no matter how literalist, are never designated by that term.
I hope at least you if no one else will understand what it sounds like to Fundamentalist Protestants when their Fundamentalism rather than their Protestantism is attacked, wideawake.
Unfortunately, as you and I both know, most American Catholics are indeed opposed to genuine Fundamentalism, which is why the American Catholic Church is in such a mess. Maybe like Jews Catholics can't bring themselves to be truly themselves lest they seem too much like "those rednecks???"
You wrote:
“I notice you did not pay one bit of attention to my argument as to why you should not use the word “fundamentalist” as a pejorative.”
I noticed EARLIER that you did not pay one bit of attention to the evidence I posted that some wacko fundametalists believed Lustiger to be the anti-Christ.
Since that is what I alleged, and that is what I proved, this argument is already over. All that is left now, is your crying - apparently.
“Your use of the term “fundamentalist” or “fundy” in conjunction with the word “wacko” simply shows you for the bigot you are.”
No, actually it shows me to be spot on accurate. Again, any fundamentalist who viewed Lustiger as the anti-Christ is, in fact, a wacko.
“I’d demand you apologize but I know you wouldn’t do it.”
I have nothing to apologize for:
1) Everything I have said has been accurate.
2) I made a claim and in fact backed it with evidence.
3) So far, all we have from you is claims and...crying.
“It also shows that you respect (and perhaps agree with) liberal, non-Fundamentalist Protestants.”
No, all this shows is that I was right all along. I made a claim - and I was right. You have done exactly nothing to disprove that claim.
“At least “fundy wackos,” unlike “the one true church,” don’t say the Bible is full of errors and mistakes and is adapted from Babylonian mythology!”
The Catholic Church teaches there are no errors in the scriptures. Look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church at paragraph 107:
“The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”
See that? The books of the Bible are “without error”. You, however, are full of error. You can’t even get what the Catholic Church teaches right even though the CCC is online and free for anyone to use.
You were wrong since the beginning and that isn’t changing any time soon. Get used to it.
I AM CATHOLIC I have a COHANIM friend and MUSLIM FRIEND who studied at AL-AZHAR UNIVERSITY....
The passing of Cardinal Lustiger filled us of SORROW ALL TOGETHER...
For “fundamentalist wackos”
Let the lying lips be dumb, Which speak against the righteous insolently, With pride and contempt.
Psalms 31:18
muta fiant labia dolosa, quæ loquuntur adversus justum iniquitatem, in superbia, et in abusione.
SALMI 30:19 (VULGATA)
You wrote: “Keating did not entitle his book Catholicism and Protestantism but Catholicism and Fundamentalism (ie, contrasting Catholicism with simply conservatism).”
You have no idea of what you’re talking about. Keating makes it clear that his book has NOTHING to do with combatting conservatism. He IS a conservative. Read page 11 of his book and you’ll see who he is addressing in the title.
“Yet when Catholic or Orthodox chr*stians want to attack sola scriptura they always identify it as “Fundamentalist” rather than “Protestant.” Why is this???”
You’re wrong again. Look on these pages more often and you’ll see plenty of Catholics identify sola scriptura with Protestantism and not just Fundamentalism. I do it CONSTANTLY.
“Every time I hear or read of some non-Protestant criticizing “Fundamentalism” rather than “Protestantism” the message I get is “if they’d just admit the Bible is full of crap they could keep their Protestant beliefs and we wouldn’t have any problem with them.” “
Then you have some deeper issue at work here since that isn’t what Catholics mean here.
How can you be so consistently wrong and yet think people should listen to you?
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