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To: visually_augmented
So does the Roman Catholic church teach that Baptism is effacacious? In other words, is someone who is baptized GUARANTEED to be saved?

Baptism removes the blot of original sin. We are not guaranteed salvation; we hope for salvation.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

4 posted on 07/28/2007 3:45:22 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture

This 'novel theory' is all over the scripture...Millions upon millions see it every day...The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there...

The Apostle Paul talks about two kinds of salvation...He talks about those who trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ and their 100% faith in His complete atonement for their sins...Where no sin is imputed to them...

Paul also talks about another group of people who insist on living by the law...The people that will attempt to endure, trust in themselve to make it to the end...Paul goes on to say these people will be judged by the law...And this judgement is the White Throne Judgment of Revelation...

You guys are looking ahead to the White Throne Judgement to see if you make it into Heaven...

The other group won't be involved in the White Throne Judgement

So I see where you are coming from in your theology...It's in the bible...But so is a bunch of other stuff which appears to be beyond your vision...

9 posted on 07/28/2007 9:14:36 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: NYer

NYer: “Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation.”

Thanks for the explanation; I was not aware of the distinction between redemption and salvation. It then sounds like the Roman Catholic teaching is that redemption is God’s work (through Christ) and salvation is each individual Christian’s work.

The following is probably my favorite Biblical passage of all:

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

In these verses, I see no contingency on the actions of God’s children (those whom he foreknew) to secure glorification. All I see is predestined->called->justified(redeemed)->glorified(saved).

In other words, once God initiates, can we legitimately defy his will? Can we thwart the divine plan of God as identified in His Holy Scriptures?

If it is up to me to secure salvation, I am hopelessly lost! For I (like Paul) am the chief of sinners...

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.


18 posted on 07/29/2007 3:05:32 PM PDT by visually_augmented (I was blind, but now I see)
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