Posted on 07/23/2007 3:36:15 PM PDT by annalex
Sunday, July 22, 2007
As a young Catholic I was unaware of the amount of irrational hatred that was directed toward the Catholic Church and Catholics themselves. Growing up in Los Angeles I was not subject to the Fundamentalist tracts being placed on my family car while we were at Mass as I would have been had I lived in the Bible Belt. My exposure to people of other faiths was frequent and always positive. The majority of my friends growing were Jewish as were the girls whom I had the honor of dating. My babysitter growing up was Mormon, as was my Paternal Grandfather. My Paternal Grandmother is a Methodist and my Father was an atheist for most of his life. My Maternal Grandfather was a Presbyterian from a family that produced many deacons. However, my Maternal Grandmother was an Irish Catholic and thus my Mother was a Catholic and therefore we were raised Catholic. None of this was seen as a conflict. None of the above people in my family ever acted as though anything was wrong with my siblings and I being raised Catholic.
In my college years I essentially fell away from the faith. I still called myself a Catholic but had no particular belief in any of the dogmas that makes one a Catholic. I just knew that I was of Irish ancestry and thus was Catholic. My beliefs were for the most part agnostic. I thought that true believers were absurd (I included both theist and atheist true believers as absurd).
While in college I heard all about how the Catholic Church was responsible for the Dark Ages, the destruction of the Native Peoples of the Americas, the Holocaust, the Inquisition, pimples on teenagers, Milli-Vanilli and just about everything else that negatively effected anyone anywhere at anytime everywhere. I learned how peaceful and wonderful Muslim societies were and how Christians lived very well under Islamic rule. And how the Crusades were an evil move by a corrupt Pope to throw off that wonderful balance and have a huge land grab for greedy Churchman and Nobles. I heard how nothing good happened in the Christian world and no good men were produced in the Christian world until Marin Luther and later "the Enlightenment". I look back now and marvel at how I remained a Catholic even if it was in name only. All my history professors with their fancy PhDs thought Catholicism was a force for evil in the Western World who was I to disagree? Of course I just went along and got good grades and degrees not really challenging the idiocy that I was being taught.
There I was just a young guy going through life not contemplating the great issues of life and certainly not contemplating being a Catholic when I had the misfortune to meet a Rabbi that was a friend of my wifes family. During our discussion, the rabbi told me about things that Christians buy into like the Trinity and the fact that Jesus was God. I was told that I could never understand Jews and their suffering at the hands of Catholics. I was told that I would never know what it is to be a Jew or how it feels to have your children forced to sing Christmas carols (oh the horror! the horror!). I would never know what it is like to look at someone like me and see the Inquisition and the Crusades. Now, anyone who is not a self absorbed bigot would know that talking to a person who is half Irish and Catholic knows a little something of prejudice and persecution. My ancestors could not own land in their own country. They had to pay taxes to a foreign English master and support his foreign Church that was a parasite on their own land. They had real persecution. If they could have gotten off with simply singing Church of Ireland songs rather than pay taxes to and be persecuted by the British, I'm sure they would have gladly accepted. But why look past ones on victim-hood in order to see truth, when victim-hood is so much more of a commodity in our modern society.
At that point I made a commitment to understand my faith. I would never let someone attack the beliefs of my ancestors as this rabbi did without making a strong defense. My ancestors were willing to be persecuted (the real kind of persecution not the Christmas Carol kind) rather than abandon their faith. The least I could do is understand what they found so important as to endure what they did. Thus starting my journey toward becoming a passionate believer. The irony of a anti-Catholic bigoted rabbi bringing me closer to the truth of Christ is absolutely wonderful.
I started reading books by the usual authors that are sold at Borders and Barnes & Noble like George Weigel. While informative they were, upon reflection, very superficial. However, I happened upon a book called Catholicism verses Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. I thought it was simply going to be an analysis of Catholic beliefs versus Fundamentalist beliefs. What I had purchased was a wonderful combination of satire and apologetics. It has become the definitive apologetics book produced in the last 30 years. The title of the book itself mocks Jimmy Swaggarts silly book Catholicism and Christianity. Throughout the book I was baptized by fire into the world of anti-Catholicism. I learned about such Fundamentalist writers and thinkers as Lorraine Boettner, Alexander Hislop, Jimmy Swaggart, Jack Chick and others. Keating dismantled their arguments so thoroughly that one wonders how these people are not all routinely dismissed even by honest Fundamentalists. Sadly, low rent bigots like Hislop, Boettner and Dave Hunt are still widely read in Fundamentalist circles. Swaggart has fallen out of favor as we all know. Keating opened up a new door to me. I now was ready for the next step and started buying every book by Chesterton and Belloc I could find as they are the greatest apologists for the Catholic faith in the last 100 years.
The Holy Spirit has a funny way of working. I became friends with a wonderful guy who happens to be a Fundamentalist Christian. As we would talk he would mention some of the things that Keating talked about in his book. I was informed that Peter never went to Rome and that the Church was founded by Constantine the Great, and that Easter is really Ishtar and other scholarly insights that occupy the minds of Fundamentalist writers. I was told all about Catholicism and how it is really just paganism re-written. To his and most Fundamentalists credit, they literally do not know they are repeating lies. These books are sold at Protestant Book Stores and Churches. Also, he informed me of these things out of love as he believed my soul was in peril. So he could not process the refutations that I would make to him and just go on to the next attack. Most Catholics know about this tactic that Fundamentalists use. They will tell us what we believe and how stupid we are for believing it. 99% of the time they are wrong. The problem is that they have been told by Dave Hunt (his bio is from "rapture ready") or James White that the Calumnies that they are stating are Gospel truth.
After a while I began to pick up more and more apologetics material to refute my friends claims. I also decided that I would no longer play defense with him. I would attack his belief in sola scriptura (scripture alone) and sola fide (faith alone). When I would press him and ask about where those teachings are found in the Bible he would have no answer. This lead to his anger that I was asking too much to show me where the Bible taught either one of those Protestant Traditions (Traditions of men, not of God I might add). I would also repeat what he would say to me but re-phrase it to see if he really was willing to stand by it. For instance, he once told me that he was passionately anti-Catholic. I responded Really? So if I were Jewish would it be okay for you to tell me that you are passionately anti-Jew? He was taken aback and responded Of course not! I then responded I guess some hatred is acceptable while others is not. His response .silence. And then move on to the next attack. That is generally the tactic of the anti-Catholic. Never acknowledge that they are wrong, just move on to the next attack until they find something that the Catholic cannot answer. Usually it ends with some obscure Pope from the 7th century that no one knows about.
Anti-Catholicism rots the mind. It blinds people and they become obsessed with the destruction of something that they cannot destroy. People have been trying for 2000 years. Churchmen like Roger Mahoney have done their best. But the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it. So this leads to desperation. Which then leads to all kinds of ridiculous theories and outright lies about what Catholics believe and do. It does not stop with Fundamentalist Christians though. Before we think well thats just those weird bible-thumpers lets examine some things that people just know.
People "just know" that the Catholic Church did nothing in the Americas but persecute the indigenous people and massacre them. We "just know" that Priests never stood up to the Spaniards. Of course this is untrue. It is true that there were Catholic Priests who conducted themselves terribly during colonial times. However, it was Catholic Priests who sought to make life better for the indigenous people. Jesuits armed Indians against the Spanish in Paraguay, Francisco de Vittoria pleaded with the Spanish King in defense of the Indians. Most people in the Americas have never heard of Bartoleme de las Casas. Las Casas, a Spanish Dominican Priest has been called the Father of anti-imperialism and anti-racism. There is also Antonio Montesino who was the first person, in 1511, to denounce publicly in America the enslavement and oppression of the Indians as sinful and disgraceful to the Spanish nation. There of course were villains in the Spanish system but so were there in the American and English systems that were dominated by Protestants. We dont hear about the brutality of Protestant lands in the US. We hear about those backward Spanish Catholics (who built the first Universities in the Americas) but not about the theocratic police state established in Geneva by John Calvin or the massacres carried out by Anabaptists in Munster.
In some cases anti-Catholicism is not only profitable it can allow for common bullies to slander and desecrate the memory of men finer than themselves without repercussions. Take the case of Daniel Goldhagen. He has made a career out of slandering the Catholic Church. Commenting on Mr. Goldhagens slanderous book A Moral Reckoning, Rabbi David Dalin, described Goldhagens work as "failing to meet even the minimum standards of scholarship. He went on to say That the book has found its readership out in the fever swamps of anti-Catholicism isn't surprising. But that a mainstream publisher like Knopf would print the thing is an intellectual and publishing scandal." This statement is absolutely correct. Let us be honest though, Goldhagen simply represents the double-standard that exists in our society. He is a left wing Jew who attacks the only group that it is acceptable to attack in modern American society, the evil Catholics. If a right wing Catholic were to make his living by attacking Judaism and slandering a prominent rabbi while blaming Judaism for the Marxist massacres under the NKVD he would be an out of work conspiracy kook and a anti-Semite. He would certainly not be published in the New Republic. Goldhagen has made the absurd statement that Christianity is anti-Semitic at its core. Imagine if one were to say that Judaism is anti-Gentile to its core. They would be isolated as an anti-Semite. The message is clear. A Jewish bigot like Goldhagen gets published by Knopf and the New Republic while his mirror image would be isolated and vilified.
I would like to wrap up with some other observations. All Catholics are told endless stories about Catholics persecuting people. Generally it starts with a Catholic King who orders the persecution of a group and despite the Bishops or Pope condemning it, "the Catholics" are to blame. An example of his would be during the Crusades when Crusaders massacred Jews along the Rhine. That was the Catholics despite the local Bishops hiding and protecting Jews. When a Protestant barbarian like Oliver Cromwell slaughters Catholics at Drogheda and sells the women and children into sex slavery or sacks Wexford thats not the Protestants. Thats just Cromwell.
Much is made about Hitler being a baptized Catholic by ignoramuses like Dave Hunt. Other bigots like Goldhagen argue that Nazism was an extension of Catholic bigotry through the ages. Yet these people do not mention that Karl Marx was a Jew and that the ranks of the NKVD, some of the greatest murderers of all time, were filled with Jews. By using Goldhagens logic should we not attack Judaism and Jews? If we Catholics are and our faith are responsible for a former Catholic who later went so far as to persecute the Church, should not Jews be held responsible for Karl Marx and Genrikh Yagoda and the fact that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish. The answer is of course not. Your Jewish neighbor has likely not heard of the NKVD, Yagoda let alone support what he and they did.
As I wrap up my thoughts on this I should say thank you to all of the people that I mention above. Especially the Rabbi who started my journey. Had he not been a self absorbed bigot, he would not have angered me and I would not have explored my own faith. I would have continued in my ignorance and would not have understood the faith that built Western Civilization and sustained my ancestors. I would not have understood the faith that Christ taught to the Apostles, that was passed on to their successors, our Bishops. I would not truly know the joy of being a Catholic. His ignorant statements brought about my reversion back to the true faith and my wifes conversion to it. For that, I will literally be eternally indebted to him.
That should have been “Mary” not “Amry” a simple typo and my error.
It is my understanding (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong my fellow RCC Freepers) that in Catholicism, the priest is the intermediary between Man and God, he offers the Eucharist and Baptizes etc. and that praying to the Saints or Mary is the laities access?
I could be wrong about that though.
And “yes” Saints has a very different meaning in the Bible then what it has evolved to in the Roman Catholic Church.
When you live in a small town the anti-Catholics tracts aren’t left on your window because someone will find out who did it. When it does happen, it is groups from out of town or we get it in the mail.
Thanks for the enlightening read. I can relate to much of it. My father’s side of the family was Catholic, my mother Protestant - I was raised a Protestant.
In college, very naive and impressionable, I got sucked into extreme Fundamentalism that not only was very anti-Catholic, but anti-most Protestants. (There little group and those like them were the only “true church”.) It almost destroyed my faith.
Ironically and providentially, a Catholic friend, very tactfully helped me to wake up and smell the coffee. I got the strength to set boundaries and get out of that very cult-like group, who very quickly showed their nature - wolves in sheep clothing. I really think the Lord was teaching me a lesson on the order of the “Good Samaritan”.
I could go on and on, but I better stop for now ...
So you don't allow the simple facts to interfere with your argument? I understand completely. If you answer, then you have to admit that asking those alive in Christ to pray for us is no different then asking any other loved one to pray for us and the hole in the non-Catholic thinking grows larger. It is only by refusing to answer that you can maintain this theological fiction. As I said, I understand your dilemma but I cannot embrace it.
And no, that is not the way that Jesus did it.
The Bible says there is one mediator between God and man, the God-man, Jesus - our true High Priest. There is no need for any other, otherwise He came in vain.
That is sooo appropriate.
However it comes to you, I think attempting to force those things on Roman Catholics is a hateful thing to do and that those who do such things are cowards.
Do you ever ask a loved one to pray for you?
Do you understand the difference between “for” and “to”?
“A hole in your non Catholic thought”
LOL.
Why pray to loved ones when Christ is the mediator?
Paul said “To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord” and of course the Lord is not going to cast of those that that Christ name as his, so they are dead in the Flesh, but alive in Christ.
However, nowhere does it say “Ignore Christ and do not give him glory, rather pray to a dear Saint”.
Now the jackals will traipse in looking for fresh kill, telling us what we believe when we don't and of course, pointing out that our true, professed beliefs are false. I might feel a little different if I thought they really cared about my soul but I can't stomach self-righteous "non-Papist doodyheads" and when I pray for them, I ask God to heal my heart and provide the love.
I'm sure I'm not worthy to answer. But in the RCC, the priest has all the same roles as a priest had in Israel. It is one of my complaints about RC doctrine but it doesn't bug me as much as Marianism. There is no priest but Christ for a Christian! After that we are all elevated to the roll of priest.
And don’t forget to mention, Jesus lived within the Law.
Yes it is exactly the way that He did it. Haven't you read that?
I’m ROTFLOL at the post in answer to this post.
Both are and always were, spiritually alive. Can you show me one instance where the Jews prayed to them? Is there one instance anywhere in the bible where observant Jews prayed to people, living or dead?
***the priest is the intermediary between Man and God, he offers the Eucharist and Baptizes etc***
The priest stands “in Persona Christi” - in the person of Christ. Jesus gave this authority to the Apostles, who then passed it down to their successors the bishops, to the present day. Here are the relevant Scripture verses:
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:17-19
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” Matthew 28:18-20
“Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23
***praying to the Saints or Mary is the laities access?***
No, we can go to Jesus any time we want. “Praying to the Saints and to Mary” just means that we ask them to pray for us, as we ask our friends and relatives to pray for us. Since we believe that they are already in heaven, and can see the Beatific Vision of God, then they can pray for us, too, and are nearer to God. Here are the Scripture verses:
“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” Revelation 5:8
“And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.” Revelation 8:3-4
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us ” Hebrews 12:1
***Saints has a very different meaning in the Bible then what it has evolved to in the Roman Catholic Church***
Actually, the Catholic beliefs about the Saints are straight from Scripture:
“And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.” Revelation 7:14b-15
I have had that happen to me—quite a few times. Not only were there tracts on all the cars in the parking lot, but there were also people yelling at us as we exited from Mass. They were clever—they stayed on the sidewalk (public property, though they put the fliers on cars in the (private) church parking lot on the stealth.
They were calling to us telling us we were going to hell because we were Catholic. They called out to us that our priest was “a liar”.
And if you so much as came close to them, they were prepared to call the police and claim assault. All the time they were “legal” according to city ordinance, they made themselves look exceedingly bad.
Such a “Christian” witness is not forgotten and it left a very negative impression on all the kids.
Oh I agree it's false theology, but I read it, Octobri Mense, infallible Pope Leo xiii
.(5) With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.(6) Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother
What I think is inimportant. The verse means what the Church explains it means. If you have an aberrant interpretation, you are entitled to it, and the risk attendant to private interpretations of the Bible is also yours.
you have redefined the word saint
The argument is not about words. We venerate those who after suffering death are alive in communion with Christ: they are our example and we ask their prayers. We do not similarly venerate living saints, because Christ warns against judging people privately. We do, of course, ask living people to pray for us every time, even though we cannot make assumption of them going to heaven yet.
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