Posted on 07/13/2007 7:28:01 PM PDT by restornu
“I am surprised to see the doctrine denied so often, and don’t understand why it is done.”
Because IT ISN’T DOCTRINE. If you think it is, either you didn’t understand the books you claim to have read or your story isn’t quite the truth.
I wish you wouldn’t be so insultingly simple in your attempts....
First, the challenge was to find a verse where it clearly said that Jesus is God in the same direct simple, clear terms as it says the he is a man.
But you opened another can of worms...how were Jesus and God one? By being identical? Absurd!
Jesus prayed to God (showing that they aren’t the same) that Jesus’ disciples would be one (does that make them gods, too?) even as they, Jesus and God, were one.
The key there is “as” which is a measure of comparison.
Obviously the disciples couldn’t be God to that is out of the question.
Jesus and God were united in purpose and will. Jesus had a separate will than God (not my will but thine be done) but was perfectly subjected and unified.
And that was Jesus’ prayer that his disciples would be perfectly subject and unified with God and each other just as Jesus was subject and unified with God.
Next?
Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
If it’s so blatant, give the very best example of it you have.
The best you will be able to do is post something that is only a contradiction according to your interpretation.
The only problem with this typical Mormon interpretation is that Scripture doesn't say that. It says; "... that they may be one as we are one:"
Two groups. Sorry, you don't get to be God.
2 Nephi 5:21 is a whopper, let’s start there. (Black skin as a sign of God’s curse.)
It is not for us to deem which persons are saved and which are not. Instead, let's "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling" and allow others to do the same. Come Judgment Day, we may rest assured that His sheep will know His voice, and He theirs; "shall not the Judge of all the world do right?".
In the meantime, when it comes to questions of public policy and other Earthly affairs, let's leave aside our doctrinal disagreements and work together where we can. Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, and others may not agree theologically, but we damn sure can work together to defeat the evils of our society. Side by side we can attack abortion, euthanasia, divorce, adultery, and other corrupt practices; at each other's throats we only help the Enemy.
Are theological and doctrinal issues important? Yes, and by all means let's continue to debate our differences — but always in a spirit of charity. I know it's hard to ignore these things we all believe so passionately, but when it comes to political and social affairs we must concentrate on results. After all, even if the Ku Klux Klan or the church of Satan picks up the litter on a certain stretch of highway, the important thing is that someone is picking up the litter. When it comes to politics and social issues, people of good will can agree to "pick up the litter" — even if they agree on nothing else.
“All” Christians confess this to be true? That’s simply a way of saying, “Hey, MOST of us have decided that this is what theat verse means, and there are more of us that think this way, so majority wins, we’re right and you’re heretics.”
And “ALL” Christians have most definitely NOT believed the man-made Trinity doctrine.
Saint Justin Martyr saw Christ as “a second God, second numerically but not in will”—that is not “orthodox” trinitarian dogma.
Eusebius of Caesarea, the “Father of Church History,” signed the Nicene document, yet he was a subordinationist who maintained that “everyone must admit the Father is prior to and pre-exists the Son.” That is not “orthodox” trinitarian dogma, either.
Were Eusebius and Saint Justin Martyr Christians?
Of course, the scripture says no such thing.
But you are free to interpret it as you wish.
The according to your explanation, the disciples are to be God just as Jesus and God are God.
And that makes as much sense as saying that three is one.
Repeating Scripture is not un-Christian.
It doesn't matter how much Scripture is posted to you that leaves no doubt that there is a Triune God, you have your reasons for rejecting that and that is your decision and you have free choice to reject any Scripture you choose.
I'll leave you with one more thing that God said, and you'll probably say He was lying here too:
Matthew 10:33
33But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
You're hopeless, and my conversations are with you are finished, but the above is something, if I were you, I'd think about.
Right-o, Choose.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 7 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I'm pretty confident I'm on solid ground here. Especially since the "interpretation" that is in my Bible has proven, over the years, to be absolute truth, absolutely right, and absolutely unassailable.
But you go ahead and believe whatever you want.
There was no scripture identified in your post!
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
Matthew 24:17
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Of course, as I've found out on this thread, in the LDS universe, if God's Holy Scripture isn't confirmed by Joseph Smith, it is false.
So there is the Scripture, and you can believe it or not.
Operative word is MANY not ALL are false prophets.
Don’t be so quick to assume all are false!
Excuse me you are being simple minded on this!
I have shown in Gal.1 where the Lord was conversing with Paul through revelations that his doctrine was being perverted so soon.
So Paul received the Lord Gospel again to teach.
We also learn the that the servants of the Lord many were killed and after the priesthood was no longer was on earth, it was everyman for himself and who took procession of the scriptures?
It was the current Government in existance.
The scripture are not of this world, but the world did take possession of them and adjusted them according to pleasure of the for example Constantine who was also a Pagan.
There was much in fighting between the time of the last apostle and 325 AD the rule of Constantine.
Everyone wants to say the Bible is infallible yet there are no complete original 1 editions of the manuscripts I an sure fragments exist from the 1st period but the original I am sure in pocession of the elite rulers.
You can not smooth this over in a romantic way and think all was left intact, when even the Lord Jesus Christ through revelation to Paul let him know that man was preventing his Gospel so soon that now that the Lord was no longer on earth and deceiving men will do what they do.
To say there was no need for a Restoration of all things is living in denial.
We are thankful for the WORD of God that has been preserved and the Power of the Holy Spirit to discern that which is the WORD of God.
The only true Scriptures are those declared true by the Mormons.
Gotcha.
I think I'm done with this. I've read enough denial of Scripture, twisting of Scripture, accusations of God being a liar, denial of the deity of Jesus Christ, etc. etc. etc. to last me a lifetime.
I'm leaving this bizarro thread and the warped, deceived, world of the LDS cult. See ya.
Please explain the logic pretzel you used to come to this conclusion.
All in a day's tiptoe through the tulips for a Mormon.
"warped, deceived, world of the LDS cult."
Poke 'em with a stick and sometimes profanity which would make a sailor blush squirts out.
A TRIUNE God, eh? LOL...That means THREE, right?
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one
No matter how you slice it, there is but one God and that God is ONE!!
Your god is a pluralistic deity just as the baalim was.
The One True God is one, not three.
I have.
Yet you fail to explain how Jesus declaring unity with God makes him God.
Any group of people declaring themselves to be one is a declaration of unity NOT of being identical with each other.
Even in marriage, the “one flesh” is not literal but representative of the unity in that bond.
If my earthly father and I are of such one accord that we hold all the same values and opinions, then I can easily say that we are one.
And if I am VP of the family business I can make decisions on behalf of my father, the president, up to the limits of my authority.
And if you come to visit and wish to speak to the president, you will have to come to me first. And since I fully and totally represent my father, I can assure you that if you have visited me you have indeed visited the president as well. If you see me, you’ve seen the president because we are one in purpose, not because we are the same thing!
I may look like my father, I may sound like my father, and I may act like my father but I am not my father.
Jesus knew that God was his father and God knew that Jesus was his son.
Why is it that you can’t tell the difference between God and Jesus?
There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
The man Christ Jesus....not the god Christ Jesus...the MAN Christ Jesus.
Hey, I didn’t write the book!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.