Posted on 07/10/2007 8:57:47 AM PDT by f150sound
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II's ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.
It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."
"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.
BTTT!
What we say happens to the bread has nothing whatsoever to do with the "composition" of it. The composition is what we would call an "accident", and the accidents, as a rule, remain unchanged.
I'm not saying this to persuade you or to justify our beliefs. But if you want to attack our beliefs it might help to know what they are.
When the doctrine of Transubstantiation was being developed, modern chemistry wasn't ever dreamed of. When modern Chemistry did arise (and interestingly, around the time that "subjective" and "objective" swapped meanings) the meaning of "substance" changed in popular and some technical language.
Do you enjoy or like C.S. Lewis? You may remember that in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader they meet a star on the last haven before they reach as far east as they can sail. Eustace says (quoting from memory here) "But in our world a star is a ball of flaming gas." The star replies, "Even in your world, that is not what a star is, but what it is made of."
That is a beginning of the question of substance in the old sense of what it IS, and in the new sense of what it is MADE OF.
Again, I'm not trying to persuade or anything, just trying to clarify. In general I would say that understanding our Eucharistic theology is VERY challenging indeed. Think of all the things we say about the presence of God and of Jesus. One might almost ask whether and why one might want to CONFINE the "Real Presence" of Our Lord to the Sacrament. Sometimes that seems as remarkable to me as asserting He is present there. Where is He NOT present. (No fair answering, "among you Catholics ....")
Why do you reckon that Catholics just don’t come out and admit this Mary worship? Fear of straining the Church’s relationship with other Christians or what?
Freegards
I am certainly curious, Ransomed; but I’m not out to play gotcha games. I’m quite confident and secure in my own religion. I see no need to try and tear down or disprove another’s in order to validate mine.
But these are questions I’ve had for some time, and this thread was a good opportunity to ask them. It’s always profitable to exchange ideas, even if you don’t accept them.
~”If they say that they don’t worship Mary/the Saints, ask yourself why they would lie to you about this if you don’t believe them.”~
I would tend to believe them. As a Mormon, I am quite versed in the Fine Art of Deep Breathing While Counting to Ten when a detractor stands there and insists despite my protestations that I believe things which I don’t. I’m the guy that evidently believes in the Starbase Kolob, after all.
It’s very possible that the Catholic view of prayer is not synonymous with worship of the subject of the prayer. If an informed Catholic were to tell me this, I would accept the answer.
~”I don’t think intercession is, strictly speaking, a necessity.”~
I think I’m beginning to understand; it just seems foreign to me that a person would feel a desire to approach God through another.
~”It is, really, the same kind of thing as asking a friend or someone whom respect as a very “spiritual” person to pray for you.”~
I see your analogy; but where I find it lacking is that, if I were to ask a friend to pray for me, you’d better bet that I’d be praying for myself too. I would not replace my own prayers to God with my requests to the friend. My understanding, however, is that many Catholics do use this approach. Is my understanding flawed? If not, I suppose it’s just a quirk of Catholicism to be accepted at face value.
Only if we, as some seem to believe, thought that it was anything other than the grace of God that made Peter fit for the job. Despite what people keep on saying about us, we think it's the work of God that keeps Popes from messing up any worse than they do, just as we believe it is the Spirit of God which makes the Church Christ's body. It's certainly not any merit or particularly excellent character intrinsic to the members of the Church.
I think it depends on the Catholic. For many the Rosary is the first "Extra-liturgical devotion" they try, and some never try anything more or anything else. And, yeah, on its face the Rosary is pretty much about asking Mary to pray for one. But it's also a meditation on certain aspects and incidents of the lives of Jesus and Mary. In my own experience that can vary from a sort of momentary thinking about, say, the crowning with thorns, or a lengthy visualization, or a line of thought about what pride is and how it needs to be mocked, and how Jesus took what I deserve.
But plenty of us go to Mass daily - and that's a minimum of 35 minutes with rare mentions of our Lady. And then there's morning and evening prayer and other prayers, and they are generally completely devoid of prayer to saints. After "night prayer" (which I do not generally do) there is an "antiphon" (sort of a hymn) to our Lady. The offices, though, are mostly a generous helping of psalms. But I would say the majority of the prayer time of lots of devout Calflicks is NOT involved in praying to saints.
Hey no problem! You didn’t come of as anything but respectful, tantiboh. I just wanted you to consider some of the aspects of the whole “catlicks wurship mary i done seen ‘em at it” refrain. As far as informed Catholics go, I am anything but informed. I do know that any prayer to Mary or the Saints will only be heard/answered by the Grace of God, we ask them to pray to God for us.
mmmm shish kolob... I just might fire up the grill...
Freegards
That is true. Catholics would consider "worship," the true act of worship to be directed only to God Himself. Specifically, in the Mass where the Perfect and Living Sacrifice is offered to the Father in supplication for our sins.
Examine the English language and find phrases like "pray tell." They do not indicate that the one being addressed is considered to be divine. It merely indicates one is petitioning another.
Or old English nobility and judges would be addressed as "Your worship." Again, no confusion about whether one's nobleman was in fact God Divine.
Catholics make a distinction, a clear distinction between honor and reverence due to saints and holy people (who serve as examples and reflections of God's Grace), and the honor and reverence due to God alone. The former is known as dulia, the latter latria.
Very interesting, thanks for the insight. I wonder if my original impression was wrong, or if there’s a significant cultural difference between Italian Catholics and U.S. Catholics that would explain my observations.
Very interesting, thank you.
So the pope says Catholicism is the way to go while we Orthodox say we are the "home team" for Christianity. What else is new since the split? By the way, apology accepted for the sack of Constantinople. A few years late, but hey--better than never! Boy were there quite a number of Catholic discussion boards agonizing over that--sheesh!
Perhaps the pope should sit down and chat with the number of former Catholics who have converted to Orthodoxy. My church membership has increased to such an extent that we had to expand our parking lot twice in the last 15 years. Many other Orthodox churches are reporting similar increases in church membership. Perhaps they really love attending those crazy Greekfests where the ouzo flows freely! Or perhaps after their first visit to an Orthodox service, they were so overcome with emotion they believed they truly came home to Christ! I'll bet the latter (though don't discount those Greekfests!).
As far as the Catholic churches in my area are concerned, I'm convinced if it weren't for the huge influx of Hispanics (both legal and illegal) many of those churches would have had to close their doors due to declining attendance. No wonder the Catholic church is so supportive of illegals here in the US, gotta boost those attendance numbers somehow! Don't know about the Orthodox position, but if they support illegals, there will be Hell to pay!
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I appreciate the insight. I was not aware of the two distinctive meanings of ‘reverence.’
OK, so you don’t believe the Gospels when they say that Jesus, in the presence of his disciples, said those words to Peter? It was these men who guided and directed the fledgling Church. I don’t think I’m interpreting anything to say that they must have accepted Jesus’s command to ‘Feed my Sheep’ when he put Peter in charge of them. They sure seemed to accept him as the one Jesus left in charge; they seemed to interpret Jesus’s Words in that way. If THEY did this, I don’t see how we should think WE know better.
I still simply don’t see the controversy. Of course, the Church Christ Himself founded is the true Church. Of course, the Church that maintains apostolic succession is the True Church (this to include those who are and those who are not in complete communion with the Holy See). Of course, the Church that maintains seven valid sacraments is the True Church.
I just don’t see the controversy. Oh well...spiritual things are foolishness to fleshy man. Maybe that explains why this obvious truth is so hidden to so many.
Ping for later reading.
I am merely explaining a usual protestant’s differences with Catholics.
I have been very clear that your beliefs are your’s and fine with me.
Never did I say that Catholics believe Mary is as great or greater than Christ but Catholics view her far differently than modern day Protestants do. There is no question of that.
However....that is a minor difference compared to others between us.
That said again to go back to the original poster. I know of no one who views Catholics as non-Christians baring those I have been told feed here.
No pastor or deacon or Evangelist I ever had.
The truth hurts.
I think Christ applauds good works but that dividing line is what really defines apostate modern Christianity.
many...if not most...today believe good works trumps all including little bothersome details like salvation, acceptance of the trinity and even the old covenant’s 10 commandments
it feeds directly to liberalism and messianic humanism and not God...it is not his work but someone else’s
the equivalent in Catholicism to Protestant foolhardy good works only would be liberation theology and Marxist priests
realize please I offer these observations as a non pious often lapsed sinner who believes and comes from a long tradition of believers
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