Pope: Other Christians not true churches

AP ^ | July 11, 2007 | NICOLE WINFIELD

[f150sound]

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II's ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.

[SoothingDave]

CCC, 839

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

Spew your nonsense elsewhere.

[pacelvi]

Actions speak louder than words.

When was the last time the Vatican defended the Jews against the Palestinians, unconditionally?

I can’t recall one. I recall plenty of condemnations of Israel though.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Nothing in that Vatican document says that "nobody but Catholics are eligible for salvation." B16, like the rest of us Catholics, is obliged to agree with the Catechism, which says:

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."

Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

So, good people, don't jump to unwarranted conclusions. This is a definition problem. The definition of "Church" in Catholic parlance, is "the people of God, hierarchically assembled" or "gathered around their Bishop."

Thus Catholics and Orthodox (and possibly the ancient Nestorian or "Oriental" Christians) qualify, and others don't, simply as a matter of classification. It's technical talk. Only congregations that have bishops with apostolic succession, are Churches according to a formal ecclesial definition.

It doesn't mean the rest are all damned, it doesn't mean you're not Christians, and it doesn't mean you don't have a church, as the term is commonly defined by non-hierarchical churches!

Here's an analogy.

It's like marriage. The Catholic church can say to, say, a married Jewish couple, "Your marriage is not the Sacrament of Matrimony." But that is NOT to say they aren't married in the eyes of God. It's only to say they haven't received a Catholic sacrament --- which of course no observant Jew would claim to have received, anyway.

Please smooth ruffled feathers.

[pacelvi]

Here is what God’s true Church does when it concerns the Jews.. note the contrast between this and the dead dusty paragraph you provided:

CHRISTIANS UNITED FOR ISRAEL
MEMBERSHIP UPDATE
JULY 9, 2007

JUST ONE WEEK TO GO
In just one week, we’ll be meeting in Washington, DC to kick off our second annual Christians United for Israel DC summit. We’re all excited and feverishly finishing our pre-conference preparations.

We’ve now closed down our online registration. But it’s not too late to register. You still have the following options:
1. Phone Registration. You can register by phone for $175 by calling our switchboard at 1-866-683-6423
2. On-site Registration. You can register on-site either for the entire summit (the price goes up to $250 on-site) or for the Night to Honor Israel at the DC Convention Center ($25)

We hope to see you there!

THE PEOPLE WHO CURE YOU WILL KILL YOU
Perhaps the most chilling detail to emerge from last week’s foiled terrorist attacks in Britain was the cryptic warning an al Qaeda spokesman gave to an Anglican priest back in April. The al Qaeda spokesman warned that more attacks were on the way and that, “The people who cure you will kill you.” The meaning of this message became quite clear after it emerged that all of the terrorists involved in last week’s attacks were medical doctors.

It simply boggles our minds to think that a doctor, someone committed by training and profession to healing his fellow human beings, could actively seek to harm them. In our Judeo-Christian tradition, after all, doctors not only treat all peaceful citizens, but they treat our enemies wounded on the battlefield. Israeli doctors have likewise routinely treated Arab soldiers wounded in combat. But our enemies come from a very different tradition.

We really shouldn’t be surprised to learn that doctors can be terrorists. For years, Osama Bin Laden’s number two, the man considered to be the tactical mastermind of Al Qaeda, has been an Egyptian physician named Dr. Ayman al Zawahiri. Men who embrace radical jihadism, whatever their profession, have a much higher calling. And this calling is to kill infidels, whether Christian or Jew, soldier or civilian. Their radical ideology enables them to view us as something less than human, and thus open to attack.

Let us continue to cleave to the high road. Let us continue to offer mercy and healing wherever and whenever we can. But let us keep in mind that we live in a world with people who play by none of these quaint rules.

NEWS FLASH CONCERNING ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST
IRAN IS BUILDING TUNNELS NEAR ITS NUCLEAR SITE
The sudden flurry of digging seen in recent satellite photos of a mountainside in central Iran might have passed for ordinary road tunneling. But the site is the back yard of Iran’s most ambitious and controversial nuclear facility, leading U.S. officials and independent experts to reach another conclusion: It appears to be the start of a major tunnel complex inside the mountain. The question is, why? Worries have been stoked by the presence nearby of fortified buildings where uranium is being processed. Those structures in turn are now being connected by roads to Iran’s nuclear site at Natanz, where the country recently started production of enriched uranium in defiance of international protests. Is Iran attempting to thwart future military strikes against its nuclear facility by placing key parts of it in underground bunkers? A tunnel complex would reduce options for a preemptive military strike to knock out Iran’s nuclear program, according to U.S. officials who closely follow Iran’s nuclear activities. (Joby Warrick, The Washington Post, July 9, 2007)

PALESTINIANS LAUNCH FIVE QASSAM ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL
Five Qassam rockets landed in the western Negev on Sunday, two days after Israel Defense Forces completed an operation in Gaza in which 11 militants were killed and eight rockets seized. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the rockets, two of which landed in the Sha’ar Hanegev region damaging a construction site. The other three have yet to be located.On Saturday, three Qassams landed in the western Negev, causing no injuries or damage. A reconnaissance Givati unit found eight Qassam rocket launchers on Friday, in fields on the outskirts of Beit-Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip. One of the captured launchers was armed with a rocket and ready to launch. Meanwhile, on Friday Hamas claimed responsibility for launching two Qassam rockets against Israel. This was the first time since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip that it has officially claimed responsibility for the rocket attacks against Israel. (Amos Harel, Avi Issacharof and Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz, July 9, 2007)

ISRAEL TO RELEASE 250 FATAH PRISONERS
The cabinet approved the release of 250 Fatah security prisoners on Sunday. Those released will be members of Fatah who do not have “blood on their hands,” i.e. prisoners who had not personally participated in lethal terrorist attacks. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told ministers the goodwill gesture would strengthen Palestinian moderates, including Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, encouraging them to go in the right direction, toward genuine peace talks with Israel. Public Security Minister Avi Dichter of Kadima opposed the release, saying none of the prisoner releases implemented over the past 13 years had resulted in any activity by the Palestinian Authority designed to reduce terrorism. (Mark Weiss, The Jerusalem Post, July 8, 2007)

AL-QAEDA TERRORIST DIRECTED KIDNAPPING OF BBC JOURNALIST
The mastermind behind the kidnapping of Alan Johnston, the BBC correspondent, is an experienced terrorist who fought with Al-Qaeda alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. He can be named for the first time today as Qattab al-Maqdesy, a native of Gaza who is in his late thirties. Johnston, who arrived back in Britain yesterday to be reunited with his parents in Argyll, was held for 114 days in Gaza before being freed last week. Al-Maqdesy was himself seized by Hamas, the militant Palestinian faction that controls Gaza, as part of the process that led to the BBC reporter’s release. Unlike other foreign hostages, who were released relatively quickly, Johnston was held for almost four months by the gang, which called itself the Army of Islam. A member of the kidnap gang said last week that with Hamas threatening to attack, an order was given to kill Johnston if there was an assault. “Until the last few minutes, one of our men with Alan had the instruction that if there was an attack, he must not think of defending himself, his duty is to kill the journalist,” said the gang member. (Marie Colvin, Sunday Times- UK, July 8, 2007)

May The God Of Israel Bless You,

David Brog
Executive Director
Christians United for Israel

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Perhaps the Pope should worry [more] about the evil in his “church” in the form of sodomites and pedophiles. We know there is no salvation for them unless they repent."

That's certainly true. But the Pope "worries" about everybody. In some sense, he's responsible for everybody. That's his job.

[subterfuge]

You have priests with direct succession from the Apostles and your Church dispenses saving grace through the sacraments?

Not looking for a fight SD, just trying to get a handle on this. But as I see it, unless ALL of the priests, bishops and popes lineage can be authentically traced back to the apostles, then what the Pope said is incorrect, or at the very least, inconsistent.

[SoothingDave]

When was the last time the Vatican defended the Jews against the Palestinians, unconditionally?

So one is an anti-Semite unless one believes in the unquestioned temporal "correctness" of the nation state of Israel?

That's like saying someone is anti-Catholic if they support the British state in Northern Ireland.

Codswallop.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The Pope in no way denies that non-Catholic believers can "stream" into Paradise. That has nothing to do with "infallibility," however you define that term.

See #183

[Grunthor]

“Pope: Other Christians not true churches”

That’s ok, since you are not infallable we can chalk that up to you just being wrong. Probably not for the first or last time.

Jerk.

[Stark_GOP]

No - this is untrue. Have you read nothing in this thread?

---

The original article - “...they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

Since I don’t participate in the sacraments of the Catholic church, ergo I do not have saving grace.

I have read plenty.

[SoothingDave]

Not looking for a fight SD, just trying to get a handle on this. But as I see it, unless ALL of the priests, bishops and popes lineage can be authentically traced back to the apostles, then what the Pope said is incorrect, or at the very least, inconsistent.

That all of the Catholic bishops do indeed trace their lineage directly to the Apostles in a continuous laying on of hands is a foundational truth of the Catholic Church. My point, however, is that other Protestant denominations (in general) do not claim this succession, so they can not meet the Catholic definition.

[marsh_of_mists]

Do you celebrate Passover in remembrance of Christ?

[SoothingDave]

Since I don’t participate in the sacraments of the Catholic church, ergo I do not have saving grace.

Uh, no.

I have read plenty.

Apparently not.

[Grunthor]

How dissapointed the Catholic bigots shall be, being surrounded by us dirty heathen Protestants for all eternity, LOL!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Well, I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. And this very morning, with my fellow Catholics, who have a personal relationship with Jesus, I ate His body and drank His blood.

Actually, it makes me shake when I think of that.

[fishergirl]

LOL!

[subterfuge]

Understood. THanks.

[Grunthor]

“Do they believe that their denomination re-presents the Sacrifice of Calvary and, by doing so, that this Sacrifice acts as the chanalle by which saving grace enters into our moment in space and time?

No, they don’t.”

Put in english; Do protestants believe that Jesus dies for our sins as well as yours?

Yes we do.

[Biggirl]

The garbage is now starting to hit the fan.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Is the Pope changing the Catechism?"

Honest question. The Catechism section you referred to, stating that non-Catholics can be saved, is here

And no, the Pope isn't contradicting the Catechism.

I implore all good FReepers not to rely on Associated Press for interpretations of Catholic theology. I wouldn't trust their translations. Heck, I wouldn't even trust their page numbers.