Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
No way. Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, but we are told we will see tribulation.
Me too, Alex!
“Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, but we are told we will see tribulation.”
That’s tribulation with a small “t” as in John 16:33, “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”. The tribulation period we are talking about is the Great Tribulation, with a capital “T” as in Daniel’s seventieth week, Matt. 24 and Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16. The Great Tribulation is a time when the wrath of God in judgment is poured out on all that are on earth; all suffer the effects of it.
When I started Sunday School a long, long, long time ago, the teacher stressed that in order to understand the scriptures one had to read them all, in order, in context, as written and then come to a conclusion as to the meaning. When studying a problematic passage gather all the scriptures that have a bearing on the question and then compare and contrast, in context, to find out the consistant meaning of the author as reconciled with the other authors. Chuck must have had the same teacher.
What about Enoch? ( and of course no one was raptured during the flood, it was before the flood.)
What happened in the days of Noah? God was ready to pour out his wrath upon the earth and he took all the righteous people in the world (all 8 of them) and put them on the ark and they were spared from the wrath of God.
Well God is going to pour out his wrath once again. However now all the people who have put their faith and trust in Christ are imputed with righteousness, and thus they will also be rescued from the wrath to come.
So one way or another every Christian will avoid the wrath of God during the tribulation. We will all either be killed by the powers of darkness before it begins or we will be rescued by Christ. I suspect the scriptures would suggest that the latter is a more plausible explanation.
I agree Iscool but Satan will be working his lying wonders before Christ arrives. Will one of those lies be "let's all gather together so I can rapture you out of here my beloved children. Go and bring everyone you know".
Many Christians don't understand Satan comes first and they are not prepared for his deceit. He is coming as Christ and he is going to fool many good people. God not only allows this but He said Himself, "I will send strong delusion to those that believe a lie". (2Thess.2:8)
There are actually a number of arguments for a pre-trib rapture.
And for a mid-trib
And end-trib
and no trib
etc.
They all have their arguments. The question is whether folks know what they are.
“Many Christians don’t understand Satan comes first and they are not prepared for his deceit. He is coming as Christ and he is going to fool many good people. God not only allows this but He said Himself, “I will send strong delusion to those that believe a lie”. (2Thess.2:8)”
Before he is revealed the Holy Spirit (or the church) is removed (2 Thess. 2:7, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way). So explain how the christian or the church can exist without the Holy Spirit or how they can discern Christ or the anti-christ without the Holy Spirit.
Nope, we just don’t read it in any of our services. It’s part of the canon, but regarded as more likely to excite the passions than to edify, so we don’t make much of a deal about it. (Though some aspects of our liturgical practice are drawn from it: for instance, the earthly altar of a church being a copy of, and, participating in the Heavenly altar, we always have a relic of a martyr in the Holy Table.)
It is the only book in the bible that promises a special blessing to any who will read and keep the words in it.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Revelation 1:3 KJV)
Why would anyone want to avoid this book?
Just out of curiosity, why would you need that? The very dust of the earth, from which all saints are made, is a relic of the creation of God. Why should some molecules of dirt have more value than others? Why should we venerate the dust of the earth? Should we not simply praise God for the work of the martyrs (which is the work of God anyway) and give all the glory and honor to God? Isn't that what THEY would want?
Iscool I don't think that is what happened. Paul was referring to his letter (1Thess.4:13-17)that folks get the rapture theory from. The problem is that they begin at vs.14 and leave out what the subject is - About those that have died before them.
That is all those verses are about, not about Jesus coming to to carry them away so they miss everything He spends other chapters warning them to be prepared for.
1Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead "rise first" because they are already with Him, that was what Paul was telling them. They are not in a hole in the ground but with Him. He descends at His 2nd Advent, at the 7th trump, as He told us (1Corin.15:52). The 7th trump is the last trump. Satan comes first at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial - 666.
17.Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"Clouds", as used here is just an expression that means in a big crowd, as a cloud of locusts. The word "air" means "to breathe, air", meaning your breath of life, your spirit, not the atmosphere. Knowing that we can read the verse differently:
Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them (those that have died before us) in a (huge crowd), to meet the Lord in (our spirit bodies): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The folks then, as well as now, confused what he was saying and thought Jesus would come back to fly them away. For that reason Paul wrote his 2nd letter and warned them not to let anyone deceive them, that Satan would come before Christ did - get ready for it.
1Thess.1:10...No wrath to come for Christians
Christians that stay true to Him and do not fall for Satan's deceit, as many, many will do, will not experience His wrath. He promises that and I certainly believe Him but He did not say we wouldn't be here when things happened.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come
The condition He gives there is that we wait for His Son and not chase after the "instead-of-Christ".
Paul is telling these folks that they DID NOT miss the Rapture...The proof??? Because the man of sin will be revealed before Jesus Christ His face to the entire World...
Yes, he will but will they realize it? That is what he is warning us about. Satan will be here in plain sight but the unlearned will believe him to be Christ coming to rapture them away.
When the Lord Jesus comes to take out the man of sin at the end of the Tribulation, His church, His bride, His saints show up WITH HIM.
The armies which were in heaven followed Him....(Rev.19:14). All those that believed on Christ, that have died before us, come with Him to gather with us. He is coming to earth, we aren't going anywhere.
At least that is what I believe and so I warn others when the opportunity arises.
......Ping
I believe both tribulations, or Satan's tribulation and God's judgment, which is a much better term, are both mentioned.
Rev.12:17 tells us: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
God gives Satan this power. It is part of His plan.
8.And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This is the tribulation of Satan but most won't know it is a tribulation as it will be more like a big love fest. It is one of deceit and lies. He comes in prosperously and peacefully.
Daniel 11:21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
"So will we all experience "God's Judgment" or will we, like Noah, be taken out before God pours out his wrath upon the earth?"
I believe that Noah, Daniel in the lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children in the furnace, the Hebrews in the Exodus, etc. are all our examples. We will not experience His wrath. We are His children and He loves us. I do believe we will be here, as those I mentioned were, but we will not be harmed.
"We will go through Satan's tribulation and many already have. The evil that we have here on earth is the tribulations caused by the adversary. The tribulation that will precede the coming of Christ is GOD's tribulation. Big difference."
Many do experience Satan's tribulation now but what he has coming will be much worse:
Rev.12:9.And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mark 13, when Christ was telling His disciples about the end of days: 19.For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20.And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
The affliction isn't as we normally think of it but is one of lies, and deceit to get us to follow him. To believe that he is Christ. That is his tribulation. God's judgment is after that and He judges those that followed Satan.
So, although I agree with you on some things, on that I must disagree. I believe He tells us that the tribulation that preceeds the coming of Christ is that of Satan, however he does it with God's permission.
I don't "warn" people about their belief in a post tribulation rapture. I could care less if people believe in a pre-trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. As paul says, it is a MYSTERY.
That being said, I don't like the way some people, like the author of this article, try to impugn the motives of good people who believe differently than they do on this issue. Men of good will can believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and they have verses which back up that belief. Men of good will can believe in a mid-tribulation rapture and they have verses which back up that belief. Men of good will can believe that the whole book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD and that there will be no rapture and they might even have a verse or two to back up that notion.
At any rate, eshcatology is not central to Christian belief. So we ought not to be questioning either the intelligence or the good will of those who disagree with us on this issue.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV)
Let's don't forget that.
To mirror the souls of the saints under the Heavenly Altar as recorded in the Apocalypse of St. John, and thus as a reminder of their prayers.
The Church has done this since the earliest days: in the days of the persecution by the Roman pagans, the tombs of martyrs in the catacombs serves as the holy table.
Just a simple question, is the Holy Spirit and the church on earth during the opening of the seals, trumpets and vials in Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16? In other words is the church going through God’s judgments?
Actually, I believe in Matthew 24 Jesus was speaking of the end of the age, not the end of the world.
“This” means this and not “that.”
“You” means you and not “they.”
And “very soon” means very soon.
Therefore, “this generation” was the generation that He was speaking to. And it was that generation that He was speaking to that saw the destruction of the Temple and Jeruselem and the end of the Age.
All who saw that destruction, including “those who pierced Him,” knew that He was the Christ, that He was the Temple, and that His kingdom would never be destroyed.
If the word "judgment" is used instead of "test" what are you being judged on in this particular instance? If God said that He would send strong delusion so they should believe a lie then what lie is it? Those that "have already totally rejected the truth" already belong to Satan. He wants Christians and will lie to get them.
Unless you are willing to state that every Christian who believes in the rapture has "pleasure in unrighteousness," then the lie in II Thess. 2:10 has NOTHING to do with belief in the Rapture.
I am not willing to say that. I am willing to say they don't know it is a lie. They believe it with every fiber of their being. God tells us that those that believe the lie have pleasure in it.
Most people, if not all, who have pleasure in unrighteousness, (i.e., unrepentant sinners who reject Christ) mock the idea of a Rapture and make fun of those who believe in the Rapture of the Church. They make fun of most Christians, no doubt, but they take exquisite pleasure in mocking those who believe that someday the Church will be raptured to heaven.
I understand your feelings P-Marlowe but I am not one of them. I do not mock or make fun of those that believe in rapture. I do try to tell them of my concerns.
So don't go blaming God for sending a delusion
I don't blame Him at all, those are His Words, He warns us.
Your rejection of Christ and your taking pleasure in unrighteouness. When God sends a strong delusion that you might believe a lie, he has stopped knocking at the door of your heart. At that point your fate is sealed. You are going to hell, so you might as well be happy about it. All that God needs to do to "send you a strong delusion" is to simply stop working in your life and leave you to your own devices.
If God said that He would send strong delusion so they should believe a lie then what lie is it?
that there is "pleasure" in unrighteousness. It is similar to when God hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah didn't want to let the Children of Israel go, so God made it easier for him to follow his own devices by hardening his heart.
Those that "have already totally rejected the truth" already belong to Satan. He wants Christians and will lie to get them.
And if God has given them over to Satan, then they will believe the lie, they will believe their delusions, they will reject the gospel.
All of this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with whether or not you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture or no rapture at all. The belief in the rapture is simply our hope that we will not be present during the wrath that is to come. If we are here during that day of wrath, then we'll just have to deal with it. If we are taken up to the Marriage Supper before that happens, then I guess we'll just have to deal with that.
Tell you what, just sit next to a pre-tribber at the Marriage supper and they'll explain it to you then.
I am not willing to say that. I am willing to say they don't know it is a lie. ?
It is not a lie. It is a reasonable deduction regarding a mystery that is scripturally sound.
They believe it with every fiber of their being.
Baloney. I believe it. But not with every fiber of my being, that's for sure. By accusing those who believe it as believing in a lie, I would venture to guess that you believe in a post tribulation rapture "with every fiber or your being." Otherwise, you would not be claiming that pre-tribulationists are being deliberately deluded by God so that they can believe the lie.
God tells us that those that believe the lie have pleasure in it.
Boy you are really taking that out of context. It is those who have pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS that will believe the lie in 2 Thess 2:10. Now as I said before, unless you are willing to say that everyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture "takes pleasure in unrighteousness", then I think you ought to stop using that verse to condemn us. It has nothing to do with eschatology. It has to do with soteriology.
I do not mock or make fun of those that believe in rapture. I do try to tell them of my concerns.
While at the same time accusing us of having pleasure in unrighteousness. If your hermenutics are that bad in regard to II Thess 2:10, then I would have to question your hermenutics in regard to your ideas about the rapture.
Get a grip Ping. This issue is not life or death.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.