Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church

ArriveNet ^ | July 7, 2007 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.

[Diego1618]

So you don't think they are the United States?

I think the Nation of Israel is where The lord wants them to be: [Amos 9:9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Now....since you have been shown what God is going to do with the House of Israel......from scripture........"you" tell me where they are! I would say that, we here in the U.S.A., probably have a decent share of them! As to where the rest of them are.......for the umpteenth time I DON'T KNOW!

One thing is very certain as well as scriptural. They are not sitting in a little country in the Middle East surrounded by terrorist states.

[topcat54]

Scripture twisting at its finest.

It reminds me on the dispensationalist wranglings over kingdom of heaven vs. kingdom of God, and “trump” vs. “trumpet”, generation vs. race, Rosh is Russia, Meshech is Moscow and Tubal is Tobolsk.

[Ping-Pong]

We have a clear winner here - Truth {and Diego is bringing it to us} if ears are open.

FTD when I read some of your posts about this tribe issue it reminds me of Jesus talking to Paul - ...And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus Whom thou persecutest; it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Aren't you weary of kicking against those pricks of truth? God wants you to know these things. Because some churches don't know or teach them doesn't mean you must stay in the dark about the issue.

[Ping-Pong]

Scripture twisting at its finest.

There is a great deal of "scripture twisting". Some believe scripture tells them of a rapture, some believe Eve ate an apple, some think all the different races came from Noah, others believe the world was made in 6 days, still others actually believe we're in the millennium, despite all the scriptures that say the complete opposite. Scripture is twisted often and oddly enough those that believe those things can't see the truth about the house of Israel.

The difference here, in reference to the 12 tribes of Israel, is that it is CLEARLY shown in God's Word, over and over again.

[P-Marlowe]

Aren't you weary of kicking against those pricks of truth? God wants you to know these things.

Don't be so arrogant. You could be wrong. I say you probably are wrong, but then I could be wrong.

[Diego1618]

I say you probably are wrong, but then I could be wrong.

Phillip.....why do you say she's wrong? You must have some scripture to back up your charge. It is not arrogance to posit what you believe. (Ping-Pong:God wants you to know these things.) She is making a valid point. Why do you think The Lord inspired these things to be written....if He wanted us to ignore them?

[P-Marlowe]

Phillip.....why do you say she's wrong?

I did not say she was wrong. I said she could be wrong. I also said that I could be wrong about her being wrong.

Gosh Diego, get a grip. You could be wrong too. In fact I think you are wrong. But I could be wrong about that.

[P-Marlowe]

It is not arrogance to posit what you believe. (Ping-Pong:God wants you to know these things.)

It is the height of arrogance to speak for God.

[William Terrell]

When you think about it, the pre-tribulation rapture is about saving bodies from pain. Bodies are material and temporary. God has never spared those He loved from physical pain. Matter of fact, He has used pain to temper and prepare.

God doesn't give a crap about bodies. Pre-tribulation rapture makes no sense spiritually.

[Ping-Pong]

Don't be so arrogant. You could be wrong. I say you probably are wrong, but then I could be wrong.....It is the height of arrogance to speak for God.

That would be arrogant but it wasn't meant that way. I didn't think anyone would assume I thought I could speak for God. I'll be more careful with how I phrase things in the future.

Thank you for admitting you could be wrong as I think you are probably wrong but I could be wrong too.

Joking aside, Diego clearly laid out the truth about the 12 tribes as God shows us in His Word. Surely this is something He would want us to understand

[Cvengr]

"God doesn't give a crap about bodies. Pre-tribulation rapture makes no sense spiritually."

I've found the opposite to be true on both accounts.

God cares even about the little sparrow and how it is provided for in its body. He still has scars from the Cross in His eternal body of the Son. The body of the Son though followed the will of the Son to remain true to the Father.

In regards to the spirit, the pretrib rapture makes very much sense if the Holy Spirit no longer indwells the believer during the Great Tribulation.

[xzins]

dispensationalist wranglings over kingdom of heaven vs. kingdom of God

Interestingly, I ran across a Catholic (RCC) article last week that also distinguished between the KOH & the KOG. I wish I'd saved the link, and I didn't look at it closely. I was searching a protestant topic, and that article didn't really address what I was looking for so I moved on.

[Ping-Pong]

In regards to the spirit, the pretrib rapture makes very much sense if the Holy Spirit no longer indwells the believer during the Great Tribulation.

Please tell me the scripture that mentions the Holy Spirit won't be with us. I know I have read something about that but I can't find it.

Thank you.

[William Terrell]

Did He spare Moses pain in the desert? Did He spare any body of those He chose? Did He spare the body of Jesus? Even we know the toughening ability and spiritual developing nature of physical pain.

Even the Catholic church's saintifying process elevates pain in importance for becoming a saint.

A body is a temporary vessel for the spirit and soul; it always dies. Everlasting life is for the soul.

I repeat, God doesn't give a crap about bodies; He gives a crap about the state of the immortal living therein and its growth, which growth is always enabled by pain.

[ScubieNuc]

Because some churches don't know or teach them doesn't mean you must stay in the dark about the issue.

Hello again Ping.

I've been watching this thread with some interest. You and Diego are still clinging to your own 'Strong's theology' or 'Murray theology.' You and I have been over most of that so, I wont waste bandwidth with "vain disputes." This last quote of yours caught my eye, though. How do you know what churches are teaching? And how do you know that your information is absolutely correct?

I go to a church of fellow believers. I even visit other denominational churches from time to time, but I would never make such a bold statement as to claim to know what other Christian churches are or are not fully teaching. The fact that you and Diego don't go to church, makes that statement even harder to swallow.

On a side issue, I noticed earlier in this thread that a poster asked some questions about end times beliefs, but no one answered his/her questions on line. I think that's an example of missing the forest for the trees.

We are here to spread the good news of Jesus, but some of us (myself included at times) are so caught up in our own defense of our own theology that we miss the individual on the side asking for help. That is sad.

Personally, I think a few verses need to be looked at and thought about.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

1Tim. 1:4-6 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:

From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling (empty talk);

2Tim. 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Titus 3:8-9 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Sincerely

[Ping-Pong]

Hi Scubie, it's good to hear from you again.

How do you know what churches are teaching? And how do you know that your information is absolutely correct?

I don't know what all churches teach but I know many don't teach about the tribes if so many church goers aren't aware of it. I know I'm not "absolutely correct" but I do know the information about the tribes being separate is very true. It is throughout His word.

On a side issue, I noticed earlier in this thread that a poster asked some questions about end times beliefs, but no one answered his/her questions on line. I think that's an example of missing the forest for the trees.

I thought I answered all of the questions. As far as I know, there was only one I didn't answer because I didn't know what he meant (soul sleep) - I asked for clarification but never received an answer.

We are here to spread the good news of Jesus, but some of us (myself included at times) are so caught up in our own defense of our own theology that we miss the individual on the side asking for help. That is sad.

Yes, it is. Scubie, I try to stay away from theology and only discuss what is written, not what different religions say.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Do you think that describes what I have done? What glory do I seek, how have I provoked or who do I envy?

1Tim. 1:4-6 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

The only genealogies I'm interested in are the ones God so carefully lays out for us to study.

2Tim. 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Again, I only try to discuss His Word - Is that vain babblings?

Titus 3:8-9 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Isn't it considered good works to share truth with others. I thought that was our purpose. The problem arises if others don't believe it is the truth.

.....Ping

[Seven_0]

Please tell me the scripture that mentions the Holy Spirit won't be with us. I know I have read something about that but I can't find it.

II Th 2:7

[P-Marlowe]

Joking aside, Diego clearly laid out the truth about the 12 tribes as God shows us in His Word. Surely this is something He would want us to understand

The fact is that the Bible clearly states that remnants of all 12 tribes eventually ended up in Judah. They intermarried and at this point only God knows the genealogies of the Jews. 12,000 of each tribe will be chosen in accordance with the book of Revelation.

Frankly I don't know why anyone feels the need to make a big deal about it. I don't plan on being here when it happens. When the age of the Gentiles is complete, I expect to be sitting down at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I expect to be sitting down for a feast when God pours out his wrath upon the earth.

I'll explain it all to you when we get there.

[Ping-Pong]

Thank you Seven_0 but that isn't the one I was thinking of. From what I remember it was that the Holy Spirit would be taken away for a short time and I believe it meant during the tribulation. I looked for it again this morning and can't find it.

Thank you anyway and it is good to hear from you again too. I hope you have been well.

....Ping

[ScubieNuc]

I thought I answered all of the questions.

The post I am talking about wasn't posted directly to you, so you have some reasonable deniability. The post I was specifically refering to was #167.

Yes, it is. Scubie, I try to stay away from theology and only discuss what is written, not what different religions say.

I believe you are trying, Ping, but you can not divorce theology from what is written. You and Arnold Murray have a theology based on how you guys interpret scripture through the Strong's concordance. I and many other Christians disagree with some of that theology.

Do you think that describes what I have done? What glory do I seek, how have I provoked or who do I envy?

I'm not judging you or your motives personally, Ping. If you can read all of those verses and not be convicted, then I can say nothing else. I just know that I have to keep those verses and others in mind when I post about Christianity. I have posted on threads in the past with the intent on provoking an argument, and that is wrong.

Again, I only try to discuss His Word - Is that vain babblings?

It can be. Genealogies are in his Word, but we are warned not to get into endless discussions about them, because ultimately, genealogy will not save you.

Isn't it considered good works to share truth with others. I thought that was our purpose. The problem arises if others don't believe it is the truth.

I think the root of your point is important to study. Can the defense of what you believe/know to be true become vain babblings? If so, at what point should the believer cease and move on? I don't have a complete answer for you. I think it sometimes varies with the individual. It also varies on the leading of the Lord.

I do know that the Lord did instruct his own disciples to leave where the gospel wasn't wanted, and we would be wise to pay attention to that.

Matt. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Sincerely