"however it is a logical construct based on our belief that we can become like him, and that this is natural." So, you admit the belief that you can become like Jesus, you can become like God. Interesting that scripture says that is the sin of Satan, that is the lie that Satan told Eve where she was deceived. Interesting that it is by grace and grace alone that you are saved, yet your cult has said that what God Himself did was just not quite good enough, that He needs man's help for man to achieve his own salvation. This thread is about whether or not Mormonism is Christian. You just proved that it is not.
Isaiah 14:13-14, You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven;above the stars of God, I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
Ezekiel 28:2, 10"Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god-- ... You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."
1 Sam 2:2: "There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
2 Sam 7:22: Therefore you are great, O LORD God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. Gen 3: 4-5: "But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Eph 2:4-10 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
The reason your cult is so desirable, the reason that it satifies itchy ears is because it means that if a man does enough good, that he can eleveate himself to the same position as God. And that is blasphemy and heresy. It just is. Not my words, but the Word itself. The god of mormonism just simply is not the God of the bible. The scriptures make that clear over and over. Yet, man wants to make himself like God - Eve fell for it in the garden, Satan lost his position for the same type of pride. It comes in all forms. LDS just happens to be a pretty obvious one.
You said: So, you admit the belief that you can become like Jesus, you can become like God. Interesting that scripture says that is the sin of Satan, that is the lie that Satan told Eve where she was deceived.
I am quite sure your post made sense to you... to bad it's not true.
Satan will tell you 99 truths to tell you one lie, so just because Satan said something does not make it a lie. The spirits Jesus cast out are calling him by name and some even admit that they know those who hold his power.
The sons of Sceva
You said: Interesting that it is by grace and grace alone that you are saved, yet your cult has said that what God Himself did was just not quite good enough, that He needs man's help for man to achieve his own salvation.
We NEVER said that.
You said: This thread is about whether or not Mormonism is Christian.
Only Jesus can know who is his, and he has set his standard, I don't think you are him, and I don't think you know, but here is Jesus' words of the subject.
Matthew 10:32-33 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I have confessed Jesus many times here on this very forum, I am content that he knows who I am, the rest of you hooligans trying to denigrate the faith of others and deny them the name of Christian, well, by their fruits ye shall know them, and your fruitiness is on display here for all to see.
You said: You just proved that it is not.
My personal beliefs will not prove anything about an entire church. I am quite positive that if I really searched, I could find a professed member of your church that flunks some other churches "Christianity test", by your logic, there are no Christians on earth, and never will be.
I cannot help but notice your question was laying a Trap that you carefully sprung, when I answered with the correct "Doctrine" you dared me to say I believed what you were pleading for someone to say yes to your little question, is that deceiving? Are you laying a trap for your brother?
Your questions and response to my answer reveals far more about you than my answer does about Mormons, I'll let he lurkers and readers decide who is behaving in a more Christlike manner.
now, let's look at your text after the scriptures that are supposed to prove what I did not say wrong (It's called a straw man argument).
The reason your cult is so desirable, the reason that it satisfies itchy ears is because it means that if a man does enough good, that he can elevate himself to the same position as God.
No man can elevate himself, What you are saying we believe is simply not true, we cannot earn Godhood, or salvation, if we receive them at all it is by the grace of God, not because you "earned it".
And that is blasphemy and heresy. It just is. Not my words, but the Word itself.
Every Christian religion at some time or another seems to call some other church's teachings heresy and blasphemy, yawn...
The God of Mormonism just simply is not the God of the bible.
I see, an "I'm right so your wrong argument"...
The scriptures make that clear over and over.
The scriptures prove me right, over and over (see how easy it is to say that, unsubstantiated assertions are like that)
Yet, man wants to make himself like God - Eve fell for it in the garden, Satan lost his position for the same type of pride.
Lets tackle this Eve, believed Satan's lie about becoming like God thing once and for all, OK?
In
Genesis 3:4-5 it says:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
So, Satan told eve two things, 1) she would not Die and 2) she would be as the Gods knowing Good and evil.
In
Genesis 3:19 It says:
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
we see God telling Adam the he will die (return to dust)
In
Genesis 3:22 it says:
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Notice the part I bolded? God said Man had become "one of Us" These prove
A) That Satan lied about Dieing. B) That Satan did not lie about become as god knowing Good and evil
C) the Godhead made up of discrete, but harmonious beings is the correct interpretation of God's being.
Your house of cards comes tumbling down with this one nonexistent card removed, and worse for you, to a lurker, Mormons will seem to know their Bibles better than you do. maybe you should spend less time posting here, and more time reading it...
God Bless you and teach you his ways.
You said: It was difficult to follow your post. But still, yes, in a previous post you did admit that it was "natural" to become like Jesus. I provided several scriptures to show that is not just "unnatural", but it is impossible and it is the sin of pride, as was Satan's that we can become like God.
You supplied several scriptures that you then interpreted as meaning it was impossible, and a sin. I disagree with your interpretation, the rest of your reasoning being built on this faulty interpretation of the bible falls of it's own weight.
I am not trying to argue with you, just tell you I disagree with your interpretation, and I really don't have to argue your interpretation, just tell you I disagree.
You said: I did make a mistake on my post in saying that it was the lie of Satan when it should have said one of his lies. And it is a main one. The sinful nature of man desires to be like God. Not just in knowing good and evil, but in many, many ways. And Satan preys on that prideful, sinful nature in man, to the effect that if they just do all these things, one of them even being that they say the "believe" in Jesus, that they will have eternal life. Nonetheless, it does not negate the whole point, in that man desires to be like God and that is a root of many, if not all sin.
Satan did not lie when he told Eve in
Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Satan actually told the truth here God says So in
Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"
Your whole premise here is that Satan lied to eve about becoming like God and that it was a sin, satan did not lie, and it was not a sin, the rest of your post goes increasingly away from the truth form there on.
You said: Mormons not only denied the God of the bible by redefining who He is, not just the Father, but God the Son and even God the Holy Spirit, and then it adds to that blaspheme by saying that you have to DO things to earn your way to heaven. Your posts and others Mormon apologists here have confirmed that.
From your perspective Everything you just said is true, from mine it is all 100% wrong. Since God is separate from Jesus in physical form and they both have a Body of flash and bone (now that Jesus is resurrected) and the holy Ghost is a Spirit and they are one in purpose as Jesus said in
John 17:22 Which says "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" This is a simile drawn by Jesus Christ himself as to the Oneness of the Godhead (biblical term here, unlike trinity or Triune which are not in the bible)
So, from my perspective the blasphemy was perpetrated by Constantine a pagan who changed the very beliefs of the church and completed the apostasy of the early Christian church by mandating a change (destroying the former beliefs of the Arians, Justin Martyr, and Hippolytus to name a few) with this act the Catholic church rejected centuries of belief and the testimony of the apostles, and began to mix greek philosophy in with scripture and mysticism, thus it lost the Authority in all respects that it had already been losing through unrighteous dominion.
My position and perspective is just as valid as yours, and just as supportable from scripture it is sad that you have been too close minded to understand that so far.
You said: However, as the Word says in 1 John, any teaching (spirit) that denies that God Himself, the Holy One of Israel become flesh to die, once and for all for our salvation is not of God. Mormons not only denied the God of the bible by redefining who He is, not just the Father, but God the Son and even God the Holy Spirit, and then it adds to that blaspheme by saying that you have to DO things to earn your way to heaven. Your posts and others creations apologists here have confirmed that.
You guys crack me up, you keep running for the side line of but you already confirmed my point of view when we have not. LOL! Are you truly that afraid of an open and hones discussion?
If we are right about God, then you are the one who is blaspheming, and you can verbally jump up and down all you want but the fact is that our interpretation is just as valid as yours, and makes more sense.
The work you are so upset about makes more sense, we believe that when we accept Jesus we will keep his commandments. What you appear to be promoting is that all you have to do is accept Jesus and you don't have to change a thing in your life for Jesus has already saved you, so sin all you want, it's been paid for (which in my view makes God the author of more sin, and in my view is yours is the doctrine of laziness -- Join Our church, be saved, keep sinning, go to heaven). From my perspective what you are preaching makes absolutely no sense Biblically.
You said: Either the Almighty, One and Only God Himself has already redeemed us because we are unable, or He has not. You have said that over, and over in many forms, if not using those exact words.
Jesus has indeed paid for our sins. We may not be saved if we do not accept him and start obeying his commandments. It's a contract that he has already kept his end of, we just have to keep ours and it takes more than just lip service.
You said: Scripture makes if very clear that those who deny Him, as the Mormons do, are not of His fold.
Mormons do many things, deny Christ is not one of them.
You said: Now, there are many who claim to know Him, who do not try to redefine God, but yet in their hearts, their trust is still in themselves.
You claim to know him, yet you believe in the redefinition that happened in 325 AD, pity.
You said: But other cults, such as LDS, DO make it much easier to spot.
LOL, the name calling begins! Ok, Continues! All organized religion is technically a cult, so while technically correct, you are using it in the pejorative sense, which is incorrect. Mormons are no more a cult than the Catholics or the methodists or the pentacostals or any other Protestant church you care to name.
That does not mean they aren't nice and friendly people, it just means they don't belong to His fold. His definition, not mine.
Your definition, not his, your interpretation, not his, you judge us, and not righteously,
You said: You confess a Jesus that is not of the bible.
I confess the Jesus of the Bible by the correct interpretation, you confess one created by a pagan Emperor of Rome.
You said: The Mormon Jesus is simply not the Jesus of scripture.
Actually, We know Jesus much better than you would think, modern revelation and all that.
You said: I also understand that you cannot see that at this time. Perhaps some day you will.
Right back at you, and actually, I am the one who can see both perspectives here, you don't even admit the possibility that my perspective might have merit. It's almost like you are afraid I might be right and you are fighting against it because of that fear.
You said: I realize that you are trying to shoot me down.
I have no interest in "Shooting you down" I would rather build you up and teach you truth, I would rather testify that Jesus Lives and that he has saved you if you will just accept his atonement and begin keeping his commandments!
But you would rather argue points of Doctrine, sigh.
You said: I really don't care. I am not out to "trap" anyone, but to expose what is not God's truth when it is proclaimed that it is God's Truth.
Your posts here belie your words. However, you must understand that I believe I have all the truth you are trying to offer me, plus some added perspectives. what you offer me is the opportunity to forget additional truth and light. Sorry, not interested.
You said: I am not ashamed of the gospel, that it is Jesus Christ, the Almighty God in the flesh, who was was the fulfillment, completion of the Law so that all those who call on His name, His nature, will be saved.
Great, I call upon his name, I obey his commands, I am following his will to the best of my imperfect ability. I am saved. Yet, you deny me event the name Christian.
You said: It isn't about me, or you or Joseph Smith or anyone else except the Lord God, Jesus Christ.
On that we can completely agree. It's all about Jesus, not us, not any mere mortal like Joseph Smith, prophet or not, it's not about Joseph, it's about Jesus.
You said: When you can address all the other scriptures that have been posted, then I would be happy to address the small issue that you have for trying to make men into gods which seems like you just tried to deny that you said you believe. Otherwise, I really don't have the time for this. I love to discuss God's Word, but only if it is a true discussion that is edifying and exalts His Name.
I have no interest in addressing all the scriptures posted by everyone, as for the ones you posted, I'll take a look, but since they are based upon a false premise (that Satan lied when he told eve she would learn the difference between Good and Evil and thus be like God, God confirmed that statement) Forgive me for lumping your scriptures together in responses, but I am not going to be repetitive, I have had complaints about the size of my posts, and I am trying to cut down. I am going to link your scriptures, and only quote the salient parts.
Isaiah 14:13-14 will make myself like the Most High
We do not propose to make ourselves like creations most high, we propose to keep God's commands and if we are worthy to be exalted to such a station we will be happy to accept it, but it will be God's doing, not ours.
Ezekiel 28:2, 10you have said, 'I am a god
Tyrus and Zidon had proclaimed themselves to be Gods and were denying the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, thus they were told they would die at the hands of the "Uncircumcised" as a punishment for usrping God's place. Mormons do not deny God, we do not seek to take his place. Mormons are not Kings who have declared themselves Gods, we are just people, children of God as the Scriptures say and if later we become God, that is Gods affair and we cannot do it ourselves, not can we coerce him into it. We can obey and strive to be worthy for this the Goal of our existence as told to us by him.
1 Sam 2:2there is none besides you
Mormons have no God but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our creator, our redeemer, our Lord, Our God.
2 Sam 7:22:For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you
God is the only creator, there is none like him and for us there is no God but him.
Eph 2:4-10God {snip} made us alive, For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We are indeed God's creation, we are also his children
Jesus Said So As for Being Saved by grace, I ask you, the Jews had all these laws, and Jesus came and fulfilled them. Jesus then gave us new laws. are we not to keep his commands now like the Jews of old were to keep his commands then? Your position that We are saved by grace in spite of all we do is in direct contradiction with the truth which is that we are saved by Grace after all we can do.
But in the end, we both agree it is grace that saves us. You might want to review
James 2:15-26
For faith without works is indeed dead. A man is justified by Faith wrought with Works, not works alone, not faith alone, but by works can your faith be made perfect.
Now, I have answered your questions, I am sleepy for this much review of what I consider basics has made me so, I will post this and wish you pleasnt dreams.