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To: Logophile; topcat54; Gamecock
If you mean the Trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed, I must confess that I do not understand the doctrine.

Which part are you having trouble with?

ATHANASIAN CREED

Maybe you'd have better luck with the understanding that comes via the Westminster Confession of Faith...


CHAPTER II
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

There is but one only, living, and true God: who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

Deut. vi. 4; 1 Cor. viii. 4, 6; 1 Thess. 1. 9; Jer. x. 10; Job xi. 7, 8, 9; Job xxvi. 14; John iv. 24; 1 Tim. i. 17; Deut. iv. 15, 16; John iv. 24, with Luke xxiv, 39; Acts xiv. 11, 15; James i. 17; Mal. iii. 6; 1 Kings viii. 27; Jer. xxiii. 23, 24; Ps. xc. 2; 1 Tim. i. 17; Ps. cxlv. 3; Gen. xvii. 1; Rev. iv. 8; Rom. xvi, 27; Isa. vi. 3; Rev. iv. 8; Ps. cxv. 3; Exod. iii. 14; Eph. i. 11; Prov. xvi. 4; Rom. xi. 36; 1 John iv. 8, 16; Exod. xxxiv. 6, 7; Heb. xi. 6; Neh. ix. 32, 33; Ps. v. 5, 6; Nah. i. 2, 3; Exod. xxxiv. 7.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them: He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleaseth. In His sight all things are open and manifest; His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service or obedience He is pleased to require of them.

John v. 26; Acts vii. 2; Ps. cxix. 68; 1 Tim. vi. 15; Rom. ix. 5; Acts xvii. 24, 25; Job xxii. 2, 3; Rom. xi. 36; Rev. iv. 11; 1 Tim. vi. 15; Dan. iv. 25, 35; Heb. iv. 13; Rom. xi. 33, 34; Ps. cxlvii. 5; Acts xv. 18; Ezek. xi. 5; Ps. cxlv. 17; Rom. vii. 12; Rev. v. 12, 13, 14.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding: the Son is eternally begotten of the Father: the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

1 John v. 7; Matt. iii. 16, 17; Matt. xxviii. 19; 2 Cor. xiii. 14; John i. 14, 18; John xv. 26; Gal. iv. 6.


209 posted on 07/06/2007 10:27:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks for posting that, I had never reead it. Seems clear


214 posted on 07/06/2007 10:49:26 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; 2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

So far, so good.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; 4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

Here is where I begin to have difficulty. "Neither confounding the persons" is reasonable clear: We are to maintain a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

But what does it mean by "dividing the substance"? Is substance used here the way that it is used in everyday speech ("tangible physical matter")? Or does it mean something else?

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

No problem here.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

In what way are they "one"?

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. 8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

I think I get this.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

What does it mean, "incomprehensible"? Is it used here as a synonym for "beyond understanding"? If God cannot be understood, why try to explain God?

Indeed, there would seem to be no point in devising creedal statements about God and requiring acceptance of those creeds. To the extent that a creedal statement is understandable, it cannot be complete; if it is complete, it cannot be understandable. Why bother?

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

What is meant by "eternal"? According to my understanding of Mormonism, it means "without beginning or end." But I am told that it has a different meaning in this context.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. 12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. 13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. 14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. 15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; 16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. 17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; 18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

Statements 11 through 18 make the same point: although we speak of three Gods, they are not three but one. Here I have difficulty, because I count three. I cannot seem to wrap my mind around the idea that three are not three, but one.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; 20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

Again, I count three Gods. Why is it forbidden to say so?

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

OK

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

I know what begotten means in the ordinary sense. What does it mean here?

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

What does "proceeding" mean?

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

I am not sure why this clause is necessary. Perhaps I am missing something.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

Well, Jesus considered his Father in Heaven to be greater. Moreover, Jesus came to earth not to do his own will, but the will of the Father. That would seem to imply that one is greater.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. 27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

But what exactly am I to think when I worship God? How does one imagine three persons who are not three but one?

My impression from speaking to Christians is that the majority imagine God the Father to be a man with long flowing beard and a halo, usually wearing a robe. Jesus they imagine much the way he is depicted in religious art. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, perhaps in the form of a dove. Can they be saved if they think of the Trinity that way?

That is enough for now. (I have to get back to work.) I would appreciate your thoughts and explanations.

220 posted on 07/06/2007 12:23:52 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
>>Which part are you having trouble with?

ATHANASIAN CREED

The parts plaigaraized from greek secularists, Plato and Xenophanes, which are not found in the Bible. (of one substance- homouosis). Athanisius is not the author of the Athaniasian Creed which was written after his death. Many of Athaniasius statements are Modalist which was labeled by the Catholic church as Heretical.

231 posted on 07/06/2007 1:51:03 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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