Posted on 06/23/2007 10:48:14 AM PDT by Salvation
Wonderful information, thanks. I am learning so much about this subject.
Another thing, how many of us go to cemeteries and pray at the tomb of our loved one? Pray for them, and in my case for my husband, ask him to pray for me since he received the Annointing of the Sick before he died.
All Saints have to have two miracles attributed to them--one to achieve beatification, the other for canonization. Mother Guerin became Blessed in 1992. A few years later, the facilities manger for the Sisters of Providence developed glaucoma. He prayed for Mother Guerin's intersession, and touched her tomb. The doctors had told him he would lose his eyes, but suddenly, his eyes were completely healed and cured. I have met this man, shaken his hand and discussed this event with him. To me, it was the most perfect proof of the existence of God I have encountered.
The current “Biblical Archaeology Review” has an interesting article on the tombs of the kings of Israel. The author says that the location of the graves was the locus of the kingdom (major paraphrase) and gives some Old Testament references.
If I have time later, I’ll put up some quotes.
I think you mean Elisha. 2 Kings 13:21
ARE THESE THE REAL RELICS OF EASTER?
'Relics, they always are' : For all believers, there are objects revered as sacred
You don't mention Tolosa in your list. Do you know if it was San Luis we saw, or who else it might have been?
You have made an excellent point. Saints and their relics are miraculous only by the will of God, not of and by themselves. They are intercessory. While the church recognizes them, it does not control them.
Thanks for those links to articles here on FR.
I’m not too sure of the veracity of your sources on them, however.
I got the article off of Fisheaters.com which is a pretty orthodox website. Maybe you can do a websearch and let us know. I would be interested.
wow. Have you seen the Sudarium and the Shroud superimposed? There can be no doubt, they show the same man with the same wounds.
IMO there can be plenty of doubt. The Shroud of Turin's veracity - or illegitimacy - is of no consequence to the truth of the Gospels. Playing "Where's Waldo?" with a piece of cloth only tarnishes that truth, IMO.
Searching on Charles II of Anjou (there were several of them) produced one with a son named Ludovico, Bishop of Toulouse. (The French city, not the Spanish.)
It linked to an article in Wikipedia, which identifies St. Louis of Toulouse as the Bishop for which the California Mission was named -- indicating that the Spanish Missionaries translated the name into Spanish, and the reference is not to Tolosa, Spain at all.
Tolosa, Spain, is not a Bishopric. Still leaves me wondering who we saw in Tolosa.
I appreciate the points you made in that post on the other thread, and I agree with you that the Gospel does not need the Shroud. But do you know much about the Sudarium? The Sudarium is from the same event as the Shroud - (whatever that event was, I grant you). The Sudarium, with its well documented history, proves that the Shroud is not a middle ages fraud.
Saint Katherine Drexel’s tomb is in NE Philadelphia, PA.
I believe the scripture about the rising of Christ on Easter Sunday had several folks on the way to the tomb.
These people were on their way to the tomb of Jesus to give Him reverence and prepare the body in ways that could not be done so close to the start of the Sabbath on Good Friday.
They may have considered where Jesus was buried to be a holy site -- an angel awaiting them to tell them that he had risen from the dead...
However, in Christian history, the pagans (those who were not Christian) found that the bones of the early Christian martyrs had healing powers. The early Christians hid the graves of saintly people for this reason.
Why the bodies of saints had healing powers is unclear -- except for the obvious reason that this is the WILL OF GOD and a way that GOD CHOSES TO HONOR THESE HOLY PEOPLE.
But in modern times, the body of Saint Sharbel (or Charbel) Mahfouz had a light shining over the grave at night for 45 nights after the death of Sharbel Mahfouz. This resulted in the body being exhumed to be examined (which was found to be incorrupt, despite the fact that the clothes that totally decayed by constant rains during the 45 day period).
Basically, something like being incorrupt is God's way of showing that He favors this person.
In a sense, the healing by devotion to the relics is a way of God showing that He favors the saint.
And there is a scripture for that (which Jesus being the person talking):
Matt 7:16-2116 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (NIV)
The point of this scripture is that people will know that such and such a person is favored by God. That means that such a person's life could be an example for others.
Obvious examples would be Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa.
But with Padre Pio (now Saint Padre Pio), there was much controversy during his life. During some periods the Vatican was concerned about a cult surrounding him, and forbade him from writing things down.
However, now it is clear that this person is clearly favored by God -- after his death many miracles have occurred.
It was during Padre Pio's life that there were many mystic events. So how does one that he was not of the devil? (Which could have been possible)
The practices of ancient Israel’s kings, which the bible makes clear were, with very few notable exceptions (David, Solomon (for a while), Josiah, Nehemiah), all ungodly apostates... really is irrelevant to whether greatly honoring objects as aids to worship is right or wrong.
Show me in scripture, old or new, where objects related to the godly dead were used in worship. Not a word. Nothing in the New Testament either... If relics should be used in prayer and worship—why do Jesus, St. Paul, St. John, St. Peter and all the other apostles not advise it?
Please remember, I’m not arguing to dishonor the remains of the godly dead. Of course graves and objects associated with the godly of the “Church Triumphant” should be protected and honored. It’s just in scripture itself, there seems to be no place for using relics in the way, particularly in medieval times, these objects were used—that is as a direct aid to worship. When the bronze serpent Moses made at God’s command to heal the people in the Wilderness(Numbers 21), the one Jesus Himself said was prophetic of His passion (John 3:14), became an object of worship (or an aid to worship?) in the Temple area, the good king Hezekiah destroyed it (2 Kings 18:4)...
There’s no question too that godly power has blessed people in healings and such, from relics—still, if using these things is something that should be a normal thing, why doesn’t scripture show us this? All kinds of instruction for godly living are given in the New Testament—but relics as aids to worship are left out. Jesus even criticized the Jewish leadership making a big deal about the tombs of the prophets... (Mat. 23:29; Luke 11:47,48) saying their ancestors were the ones who killed them. I just cannot get past the fact that the New Testament recommends nothing for relic veneration—in the way it has been done historically since the middle ages.
They found that the relics of saints had healing power.
Also, for a long time to prove one was Pope, one had the bones of Saint Peter.
Jesus still said that do not give what is holy to dogs. Clearly, even the remains of the saints are favored by God with some special blessing.
So showing veneration (not worship) of this relics is with what Jesus said -- they are holy things and should be shown respect.
Though I somewhat agree with what you are saying, you are not listening to the words of Jesus on this.
Clearly, we need role models. One example is Saint Maria Goretti. She tried to protect her virtue at all costs. She also offered up the pain and suffering from her attacker when she died, and did not complain despite the terrible pain she was in.
Again, the purpose of knowing that these people are truly favored by God also means that we know that these people can intercede for us and that we should learn the lesson of how they lived their lives.
These relics are holy objects and have been proven to be that. That is something you must understand. That is why the favors are granted...
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