Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Jewishness of Mary
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//jewishmary.htm ^ | unknown | By Sr. M. Danielle Peters U-Dayton

Posted on 06/16/2007 5:09:43 PM PDT by stfassisi

To be ignorant of the Scripture is not to know Christ,” said St. Jerome.[2] Could we develop this statement further and conclude: To be ignorant of the Scripture is not to know Mary, the Mother of Christ?

The Bible is over 95% male-oriented. Of 1,426 names in the Bible only 111 names are women’s. … Mary of Nazareth, however, is among the women most mentioned in the Bible, that is, in the New Testament. She is an exception to the rule and almost for that reason an exceptional woman.[3]

The factual data we gain from the Scriptures on Mary’s life are by no means copious[4]. As far as details about Mary’s person are concerned, we do not know much about her liking, knowledge, exterior etc. However, through the spiritual intervention of God in her life, she becomes a person in terms of her religious vocation. Her process of individuation is initiated by her reflection on who she is and her mission as handmaid of the Lord.[5]

It is not possible to establish an exact chronological point for identifying the date of Mary’s birth … Her presence in the midst of Israel – a presence so discreet as to pass almost unnoticed by the eyes of her contemporaries[6] …Only in the mystery of Christ is her mystery fully made clear.[7]

Mary of Nazareth, daughter of Joachim and Anna,[8] is first mentioned by name in the Gospel of Mathew.[9] She was an ordinary woman, and her name was common enough that other women of the same name in the gospel had to be distinguished by their relatives or their place of origin.[10]

From tradition we can assume that she grew up as a young Jewish girl in a small town in the Palestinian Galilee. “Since Mary was born into Judaism, she experienced the Hebrew Scriptures both in her prayer and her mode of life as a woman of Nazareth.”[11] Mary’s education as a girl included listening to the readings of the Torah and the Prophets in the synagogue. We cannot know for sure but it is quite possible that Mary knew how to read.[12]

Although women probably were seated separately from men during the synagogue services, they could have learned the prayers and listened attentively to the readings from the Sacred Scripture. … There is no reason to question that Mary was present in the synagogue when Jesus read from Isaiah 61. Would she not have reflected on such passages already, wondering about their Messianic implications?[13]

It might be helpful to recall that until the completion of her eleventh year a Jewish girl was a minor and from her 12th birthday on she was considered to be of age. This means that from that day on, Mary was expected to keep those parts of the Torah, which were binding on women. At the same time she also became eligible for marriage.

Like all good Jewish girls, she would have been docile, submissive, and obedient to her earthly parents’ wishes. Thus, when she was of marriageable age, about fourteen, and her parents promised her to a man many years her elder, she accepted their decision. In all actuality, she had no choice.[14]

Consequently, we can presume that it was around that time that Mary was betrothed to Joseph. The time of betrothal generally lasted a year, with the exception of widows.[15] We know that the Annunciation[16] occurred during the phase of her betrothal.

God had addressed Himself to women before as in the case of the mothers of Samuel and Samson. However to make a Covenant with humanity, He, hitherto addressed himself only to men: Noah, Abraham, and Moses. Now, “at the beginning of the New Covenant, which is to be eternal and irrevocable, there is a woman: the Virgin of Nazareth.”[17]

This takes place … within the concrete circumstances of the history of Israel, the people, who first received God’s promises. The divine messenger says to the Virgin: “Hail full of grace, the Lord is with you” [18]. He does not call her by her proper earthly name: Miriyam (= Mary), but by this new name: ‘full of grace’. What does this name mean? Why does the archangel address the Virgin in this way? In the language of the Bible, ‘grace’ means a special gift, which according to the New Testament has its source precisely in the Trinitarian life of God himself, God who is love[19].[20]

The One who called her His most beloved is Love Himself. It might well be the core experience of her life when Mary learns that she is loved for who she is and not for what she can do. This awareness leads her to identify herself as the handmaid of the Lord[21] and urges her to embrace the mission entrusted to her.

Indeed at the Annunciation Mary entrusted herself to God completely, with ‘the full submission of intellect and will,’ manifesting ‘the obedience of faith’ to him who spoke to her through his messenger. She responded therefore with all her human and feminine ‘I’, and in this response of faith included both perfect cooperation with the ‘grace of God that precedes and assists’ and perfect openness to the action of the Holy Spirit, who ‘constantly brings faith to completion by his gifts’.[22]

Thus, we learn that Mary conceived her son through the power of the Holy Spirit[23]. Both Mathew’s and Luke’s New Testament Infancy Narratives indicate that Joseph and Mary were faithful observers of the law. According to Mathew, Mary was legally espoused to Joseph, even though she did not live with him[24] in accordance with the Jewish requirement of pre-conjugal virginity. Hence, when Mathew tells of Mary’s pregnancy before sharing the life of Joseph, he makes it clear that she had become suspect to infidelity[25]. All the more we have to appreciate Mary’s faith in the angel’s message, since she knew that her life was at stake.

Following the Annunciation we encounter Mary on her way in order to serve her relative Elizabeth[26]. The visitation has a tremendous effect on Zechariah’s house. Elizabeth prophesied[27], the baby was sanctified in her womb[28] and the mute man of the house would eventually be able to speak again.[29]

The Virgin makes no proud demands nor else does she seek to satisfy personal ambitions. Luke presents her to us wanting only to offer her humble service with total and trusting acceptance of the divine plan of salvation. This is the meaning of her response: ”Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me according to your word.”[30]

Mary’s Magnificat[31] harmonizes with Zechariah’s Benedictus[32] and reflects her deep roots in the Jewish tradition as well as in the Hebrew Scriptures. He has done great things for me: this is the discovery of all the richness and personal resources of femininity, all the eternal originality of the ‘woman’, just as God wanted her to be, a person for her own sake, who discovers herself ‘by means of a sincere gift of self’.[33] As a daughter of Israel, Mary sings in concord with such women as Miriam, sister of Moses or Hannah, mother of Samuel.

For St. Luke, Mary is the perfect example of awaiting the Messiah with a pure and humble spirit. Luke sees in Mary the Daughter of Zion who rejoices because God is with her, and who praises His greatness for pulling down the mighty and exalting the humble.[34]

The earliest reference to Jesus’ mother in any literature, and the only one in the Pauline letters and all of the epistles of the New Testament, appears in Galatians 4:4. There, Paul simply connotes that God’s son was ‘born of a woman, born under the law.’

The phrase, genomenon ek gynaikos, “born of a woman”, is a frequently used Jewish expression to designate a person’s human condition. It reflects ‘ādām yělûd ‘iššāh of Job 14:1 “a human being (that is) born of a woman " Paul does indirectly refer to her. But it is a reference to her simply as mother, in her maternal role of bearing Jesus and bringing him into the world.[35]

For the purpose of historical investigation, these phrases tell us only that Paul understands Jesus to have been born to a Jewish woman[36]. “The fact that he does not mention Mary’s name does not necessarily mean that he does not know it; but neither can it be assumed that he knows it and declines to use it.”[37]

It is significant that St. Paul does not call the Mother of Christ by her own name, Mary, but calls her woman: it coincides with words of the Proto-evangelium in the Book of Genesis (3:15). She is that woman who is present in the central salvific event, which marks the fullness of time: this event is realized in her and through her.[38] To be born under the law means, for Jesus, that he was fully integrated into the human condition in both time and place through his roots in the Jewish people. Mathew presents us with Jesus’ genealogy.

But the uniform repetitions of male progenitors is interrupted four times in order to mention women: Rahab and Ruth, both of them foreigners, are there to show that the rest of the human race is invited to share in salvation along with Israel; Tamar, daughter-in-law of Judah, and Bathsheba, who had been the wife of Uriah before becoming David’s wife, are there to remind us that the promise makes its way despite the weaknesses of a patriarch[39] and of a king[40] and, paradoxically, even derives support from them. These four women and the four irregular births that occur due to them prepare the reader for the mention of Mary and for the birth of Jesus, the extraordinary character of which will be brought out later in the narrative.[41]

Mathew’s gospel affirms the legitimacy of Jesus as a Jewish boy born of Jewish parents. He is the offspring of a legally recognized married couple. Thus, Joseph is the lawful father of Jesus who, in turn, has the responsibility of naming the child. On the other hand, Mary is the mother of this child in an extraordinary way similar to the other women mentioned in the genealogy: Rahab, Tamar, Ruth and Beersheba. Mary is the Virgin Mother[42] of the promised Messiah who is called Emmanuel, God with us!

Clearly then, Mary plays a role in God’s plan of saving His people, and indeed she was foreseen from the time of Isaiah as the virgin who would give birth to Emmanuel. Yet, in the Matthean infancy narrative she remains an instrument of God’s action and her personal attitudes are never mentioned. Once she has given birth to Jesus, she and the child become the object of Joseph’s care. Joseph is center of the drama. [43]”[44]

This becomes evident immediately after the birth of Jesus. When the violence is unleashed against the child and his family[45], Joseph takes initiative upon the Angel’s request, fleeing with the child and his mother to Egypt. Like Mathew, Luke locates Jesus in the history of the Jewish people. For Luke however, “Mary is the guarantor of his roots; and she is the sign of this newness.”[46] The birth took place in conditions of extreme poverty. Luke informs us that on the occasion of the census ordered by the Roman authorities, Mary went with Joseph to Bethlehem. Having found ‘no place in the inn’, she gave birth to her Son in a stable and ‘laid him in a manger.'[47]

We are reminded again that Jesus was born under the law when, in Luke 2:22-24, Mary and Joseph present Jesus in the Temple and ransom him for a pair of turtle doves as prescribed by Jewish law.[48]

Simeon’s words seem like a second Annunciation to Mary; for they tell her of the actual historical situation in which the Son is to accomplish his mission, namely, in misunderstanding and sorrow. … She will have to live her obedience of faith in suffering at the side of the suffering Savior, and that her motherhood will be mysterious and sorrowful.[49]

The Holy family lived in Nazareth. Not much is said about their family life; but we know that Jesus and Mary were both under the care of Joseph and, most likely, lived a normal Jewish family life.

More about Mary of Nazareth can be learned through the simple metaphors and parables in the language of Jesus in his home. … Often the woman, because of her skills in planning and experience, was in control over the critical aspects of household life. In her natural role of parenting, a woman normally would have nearly double the amount of pregnancies in order to bear the desired number of children to carry on the chores and responsibilities of the household[50].

Archeological discoveries in households attest to devotions of a religious nature at home, for example;

If the practice in Nazareth was close to Pharisaic norm, Joseph would ask the family when darkness fell on the eve of the Sabbath: ‘Have you tithed? … Light the Lamp’. Thus would they collaborate in keeping the commandments at home.[51]

Throughout the years that followed, up to Jesus’ public ministry, Mary was, for Jesus, what every Jewish mother was supposed to be for her child. “While Joseph was alive Mary apparently went with him to Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.”[52] It is during such a pilgrimage that the 12-year-old Jesus was lost for three days and Mary and Joseph went in search of him[53]. Luke’s Gospel recalls the anxiety of a mother who thought her son was lost and who of finding him, reproached him.

Here as well as upon the shepherds’ visit to the ‘babe lying in the manger', Mary as a woman of Israel and daughter of Zion remembers and ponders over the words and events of God. The word symballousa used of her in Luke means to turn over and over again in one’s mind and heart in order to face what is happening either through life’s experiences or God’s revelation.[54]

Not much is known about Mary during Jesus’ public life.

A Jewish woman faithful to the law did not participate in public life. Even her chin was covered by the veil, which she wore so that none of her traits were distinguished. The fact that in Mark’s Gospel Mary is searching for Jesus and is familiar with his whereabouts leads to an almost certain conclusion that she is then a widow and has possession of all that Joseph owned.[55]

In John’s Gospel we are told that Mary and Jesus were guests at the wedding feast in Cana. The way she interacts with the servants and initiates the preparations for Jesus’ first sign is another indication “that she was now the only survivor.”[56] Mary’s presence at the wedding feast reveals much about her. It can be summarized in her intuitive grasp of the situation, her concern over the possible embarrassment of the young couple and her willingness to call upon her son.

Mary is present at Cana in Galilee as the Mother of Jesus, and, in a significant way, she contributes to that beginning of the signs which reveal the messianic power of her Son. ... The Mother of Christ presents herself as the spokeswoman of her Son’s will, pointing out those things, which must be done so that the salvific power of the Messiah may be manifested. ... Her faith evokes his first sign and helps to kindle the faith of the disciples.[57]

The meaning of Mary at Cana is exposed fully when His Mother stands ‘near the cross of Jesus,’ and hears Him say: ‘Woman, there is your Son’[58].

The Gospel means more than that the dying Jesus is providing for His Mother’s care. … Mary on Calvary symbolizes … the new Israel, the new People of God, the mother of all men, Jew and Gentile.[59]

Both times, at the beginning and at the consummation of his public life, Jesus addresses her as ‘woman’.

The words of Jesus to His Mother, ‘Woman, how does this concern of yours involve me? My hour has not yet come,’ were an invitation to deepen her faith, to look beyond the failing wine to His messianic career. … It is striking that no sign is done to help Mary believe. The Mother of Jesus requires no miracle to strengthen her faith. At her Son’s word, before ‘this first of his signs’ she shows her faith.[60]

Mary’s last appearance is found in Acts 1:14. We see her in the midst of the Apostles in the Upper Room, prayerfully imploring the gift of the Holy Spirit.[61] For the church of that time, Mary is now a singular witness to the years of Jesus’ infancy and hidden life at Nazareth. Now she can release what, until now, she has kept pondering in her heart.

In summary,

Mary of Nazareth – whose name is written at times in the Hebraic form, Mariam – was a chaste young Jewish girl betrothed to a devout Jewish man, Joseph. The portrait of her in the New Testament is that of a prayerful Jewish woman with very human traits who aspired to follow the practices set by Jewish law and religion. The picture of Mary that emerges through the Gospels is at times powerful and detailed. She celebrates. She suffers. She observes. She prays. She treasures things in her heart and reflects on them. ... To understand what seems to be a rather casual first appearance of Mary in Scripture, we need to place Mathew 1:16 in the context of the whole of Mathew’s first chapter and pull in John 1:1-5.[62]


TOPICS: Catholic; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: mary; miriam
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 141-157 next last
To: Diego1618

Thanx for the ping & I’m working my way through your wonderfully detailed post little by little.

First point, Rachab has been changed to Rahab in many translations, creating some of the confusion.

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B40C001.htm

http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat1.pdf


61 posted on 06/25/2007 12:44:30 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong

You’re welcome....I had some free time and it is a favorite subject of mine anyway!

It is hard to believe they have those youngsters up so late. I hope he enjoys it as much as my three do. Football camp has started and we’ll be into full practice by the time baseball ends. In fact, it overlaps about two weeks.


62 posted on 06/25/2007 2:20:17 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: stfassisi
I've always found it striking that Jesus gets to spend eternity with His Jewish mother.

"Jesus, why didn't you go to medical school? You could have been a podiatrist. Your cousin Chaim was a podiatrist."
"Mom, you know I love you, but we've been over this. I had a job to do."
"I know, but...couldn't you have been the Savior AND a podiatrist?"

63 posted on 06/25/2007 2:24:39 PM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS; ps2
Aengel appears directly to Mary and she agrees without hesitation.

Really?

LUKE 1:
[18] And Zechari'ah said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years."
[19] And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news.
[20] And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time."

[34] And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"


What is the difference?

64 posted on 06/25/2007 2:26:04 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS; ps2
Aengel appears directly to Mary and she agrees without hesitation.

Really?

LUKE 1:
[18] And Zechari'ah said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years."
[19] And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news.
[20] And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time."

[34] And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"


What is the difference?

65 posted on 06/25/2007 2:29:38 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
Sorry. I must have lost my head.......................again.
66 posted on 06/25/2007 2:55:31 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE

The angel seems to have noticed the difference in intent since Ole Zech was punished. Besides,Zechariah was expected to do something he had attempted without success over the years. Mary discerned that what was about to happen would happen IMMEDIATELY. Otherwise why ask since she WAS, for all intents and purposes, married. IAC, she reacted much as Abraham did when he was informed by the three visitors that Sara would give birth. Sara laughed. He believed.


67 posted on 06/25/2007 4:50:58 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618
Ruth, a Moabite who married a man who was half-Canaanite (Rahab's son Boaz);

Rahab was the wife of Salmon (one of the Israelite spies) and Boaz was their son. I didn't say Rahab was his wife. Ruth was.

68 posted on 06/25/2007 4:57:36 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://totallyunjust.tripod.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: pray4liberty; Ping-Pong; GoLightly; DouglasKC; Uncle Chip
I didn't say Rahab was his wife. Ruth was. (Boaz)

I'm sorry for my error. I corrected it in post #59.

Rahab was the wife of Salmon (one of the Israelite spies).

I cannot find that anywhere in scripture. What I do find is that "Rachab" was the wife of Salmon....the father of Boaz [Matthew 1:5]

[Joshua 6:25] And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho. This is the last place in the Old Testament with reference to "Rahab" the harlot. No where is it mentioned that she was married to Salmon....or anyone else for that matter.

The problem with this story as I see it is the similarity between the names Rahab and Rachab. In the New Testament Rahab is mentioned in [Hebrews 11:3] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. She is also mentioned in [James 2:25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Rahab is mentioned in the Old Testament in [Joshua 2:1;2:3;6:17;6:23&6:25. In three of these passages she is referred to as a harlot and the other two passages are in the same paragraphs where she is called a harlot.

[Matthew 1:5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse. This lady spells her name differently, is not referred to as a harlot....nor it is mentioned that she helped the spies as it does in all the other verses.

Some how this tradition of Rahab being the wife of Salmon got started and the only thing I can imagine as a purpose would be to put a stain on the genealogy of Our Lord. If Salmon actually did marry Rahab we can assume that it would have been shortly after the fall of Jericho. If Boaz were born shortly thereafter, he would have been 115/120 years old when he married Ruth. The genealogies listed in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show only four generations from the fall of Jericho to the birth of King David.....some 460 years.

No....we're talking about two different women here and more importantly God's own Laws would not have allowed such a union. [Deuteronomy 7:1-4] When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou. And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

69 posted on 06/25/2007 6:23:05 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: Diego1618; pray4liberty
Why would Matthew single out 4 women for mention in his geneology if there was nothing special about them? The wives of none of the others are mentioned --- only these four. If "Rachab" of Matthew was a daughter of Israel in good standing, then why mention her at all? Why single her out or Ruth for special mention unless they were exceptions to the rule?

Furthermore according to what I understand from Jewish law, the offspring of a Gentile father and Jewish mother was a Gentile. But the offspring of a Jewish father and Gentile mother was Jewish, and after that birth, the mother was considered to be a daughter of Israel in good standing.

71 posted on 06/26/2007 4:47:27 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; Always Right
The Bible itself says that it does not contain everything that Jesus did so how senseless is it to use it as the sole source to learn about his Mother?

Yeah, pretty silly really.

It's really silly to think that there is a source other than the bible for pertinent information about Mary and her roll in the Church.

72 posted on 06/26/2007 5:11:43 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: DungeonMaster; Always Right
It's really silly to think that there is a source other than the bible for pertinent information about Mary and her roll in the Church.

Given that so little of the Bible deals directly with Mary and given that the Bible itself states that it does not contain the stories of everything that Jesus did, the only logical conclusion is that the "pertinent information about Mary" is found elsewhere.

Just on such example would be Saint Ignatius' letter to her and her subsequent response, which can be read on this site as well as others. Here is where we can come to understand her ongoing role in the church.

Your initial statement cannot be supported by fact, logic or reason.

73 posted on 06/26/2007 5:25:08 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

The key is ‘pertinent’. Sure there is more information, but how pertinent is it, and if it was so pertinent, why was it not part of the gospel? What most non-Catholics find odd about Catholics is more than half of the Church’s writings, art, worship centers around Mary. It is completely out of balance with scriptures. Mary is one of the most blessed figures of the Bible, but she is not our Savior.


74 posted on 06/26/2007 5:44:51 AM PDT by Always Right
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
Given that so little of the Bible deals directly with Mary and given that the Bible itself states that it does not contain the stories of everything that Jesus did, the only logical conclusion is that the "pertinent information about Mary" is found elsewhere.

Given that the bible is written by the Holy Spirit the only logical conclusion is that there is no other pertinent information that pertains to doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

75 posted on 06/26/2007 5:48:30 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: DungeonMaster
Given that the bible is written by the Holy Spirit the only logical conclusion is that there is no other pertinent information that pertains to doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.

That does not logically follow actually. We believe in the correctness of Scripture but there's nothing in the teachings of the Early Church, including Scripture itself, that declares Scritpure to the lone source of information.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

And this also speaks to the same thing, but it does not address the completeness of Scripture in this regard (indeed, Scripture itself puts that notion to an end) nor does it suggest that Scripture is the only such source, which Scripture also indicates.

76 posted on 06/26/2007 5:54:34 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

I can’t think of any place in the bible that points to an additional source of doctrine that is not contained in the bible. That being the case and with the weight of scripture about scripture I can think of no argument, because it would only be a human argument and not scriptural, that would trump the fact that the bible offers no other source for new doctrine. I hope that was clear, sometimes my writing is pretty spastic. I’m speaking here of doctrine not found in the bible like doctrines about Mary. The bible doesn’t point to a source of completely new doctrine unmentioned in the bible.


77 posted on 06/26/2007 6:00:17 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: DungeonMaster
Additional information is available here. Good luck on your journey.

FALSE ASSUMPTION # 1: The Bible was intended to be the last word on faith, piety, and worship.

a). Does the Scripture teach that it is "all sufficient?"

The most obvious assumption that underlies the doctrine of "Scripture alone" is that the Bible has within it all that is needed for everything that concerns the Christians life — all that would be needed for true faith, practice, piety, and worship. The Scripture that is most usually cited to support this notion is:

...from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (II Timothy 3:15-17).

Those who would use this passage to advocate Sola Scriptura argue that this passage teaches the "all sufficiency" of Scripture — because, "If, indeed, the Holy Scriptures are able to make the pious man perfect... then, indeed to attain completeness and perfection, there is no need of tradition."1 But what can really be said based on this passage?

For starters, we should ask what Paul is talking about when he speaks of the Scriptures that Timothy has known since he was a child. We can be sure that Paul is not referring to the New Testament, because the New Testament had not yet been written when Timothy was a child — in fact it was not nearly finished when Paul wrote this epistle to Timothy, much less collected together into the canon of the New Testament as we now know it. Obviously here, and in most references to "the Scriptures" that we find in the New Testament, Paul is speaking of the Old Testament; so if this passage is going to be used to set the limits on inspired authority, not only will Tradition be excluded but this passage itself and the entire New Testament.

In the second place, if Paul meant to exclude tradition as not also being profitable, then we should wonder why Paul uses non-biblical oral tradition in this very same chapter. The names Jannes and Jambres are not found in the Old Testament, yet in II Timothy 3:8 Paul refers to them as opposing Moses. Paul is drawing upon the oral tradition that the names of the two most prominent Egyptian Magicians in the Exodus account (Ch. 7-8) were "Jannes" and "Jambres."2 And this is by no means the only time that a non-biblical source is used in the New Testament — the best known instance is in the Epistle of St. Jude, which quotes from the Book of Enoch (Jude 14,15 cf. Enoch 1:9).

When the Church officially canonized the books of Scripture, the primary purpose in establishing an authoritative list of books which were to be received as Sacred Scripture was to protect the Church from spurious books which claimed apostolic authorship but were in fact the work of heretics (e.g. the gospel of Thomas). Heretical groups could not base their teachings on Holy Tradition because their teachings originated from outside the Church, so the only way that they could claim any authoritative basis for their heresies was to twist the meaning of the Scriptures and to forge new books in the names of apostles or Old Testament saints. The Church defended itself against heretical teachings by appealing to the apostolic origins of Holy Tradition (proven by Apostolic Succession, i.e. the fact that the bishops and teachers of the Church can historically demonstrate their direct descendence from the Apostles), and by appealing to the universality of the Orthodox Faith (i.e. that the Orthodox faith is that same faith that Orthodox Christians have always accepted throughout its history and throughout the world). The Church defended itself against spurious and heretical books by establishing an authoritative list of sacred books that were received throughout the Church as being divinely inspired and of genuine Old Testament or apostolic origin.

By establishing the canonical list of Sacred Scripture the Church did not intend to imply that all of the Christian Faith and all information necessary for worship and good order in the Church was contained in them.3 One thing that is beyond serious dispute is that by the time the Church settled the Canon of Scripture it was in its faith and worship essentially indistinguishable from the Church of later periods — this is an historical certainty. As far as the structure of Church authority, it was Orthodox bishops together in various councils who settled the question of the Canon — and so it is to this day in the Orthodox Church when any question of doctrine or discipline has to be settled.

78 posted on 06/26/2007 6:00:37 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

We were having such a nice conversation, then you downgraded me to a cut and pasted response?


79 posted on 06/26/2007 6:58:07 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: DungeonMaster

Sorry about the cut-and-paste. ;-)

But Fr. Whiteford presented the topics far better than I ever could.


80 posted on 06/26/2007 7:05:54 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 141-157 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson