Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Ping-Pong]

Again, if God selects “the elect” over other sinners, He must be arbitrary and a respecter of persons

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

We know that He is not a respecter of persons nor is He unfair. The elect earned being of the elect in the first age when they didn't follow Satan in his rebellion. The others that followed him then are now those of free will in this age. They must choose on their own who they will follow - Satan or God.

Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified them He also glorified.

[Terabitten]

Justice and fairness are two very different things, and often diametrically opposed.

[Uri’el-2012]

Ich bin ein Berliner.

[Suzy Quzy]

What does that stand for? Are you a 4th Degree Knight?

[Terabitten]

What’s the YOPIOS defense?

[GoLightly]

You too? I thought that was Frank’s gig.

Know if the crowd burst out laughing when Kennedy called himself a sweet roll?

[Uri’el-2012]

I'm sure they gave him credit for trying.

Even though it was a Gaffe.

Should have been: Ich bin Berliner.

[tiki]

First of all my theology can't be stated in a sentence and that really makes it hard to reply to a limited view of God. We pray to know God's will but we also pray for others and ourselves. Ultimately, we pray for our Salvation but we ask God for good things too. And sometimes even selfish things, but He is our Father and has told us to come to Him. He is not only our Father, he is our Daddy, and I don't know about you but I asked my earthly father for things, I just expected him to love me and take care of me because that's how it already was. I believe it even more for God!

How do the saints help us know the will of God? You don't understand, I don't believe that there is one church on earth separated from the one in heaven! We are all one church, the Body of Christ, everyone who has died in Christ, whether physically living or not is a part of that one body, we are all alive in Christ! And just as someone of flesh and blood can inform me and pray for me, I believe that the saints can inform me and pray for me.

Do I have to shout? GOD IS WITH US. THE SAINTS AND ANGELS ARE WITH GOD AND SO THEY ARE WITH US TOO.

By the reasoning or implied reasoning of some there would never be any reason to ask anyone in the flesh either. Or even do anything yourself because God could do that. Yeah, He could but He gave us the means to do much of it ourselves and He gave us family to help us and He also gave us people outside our families to help us and on and on and the Saints are part of our help.

[PAR35]

I know. That is a difficult passage. You come away from it asking, “is Mary even a Christian?”. But if she wasn’t, how could she be ‘Blessed’ (Luke 1:28).

[AnAmericanMother]

In Polish, it's a pączek.

In Berlin, it's called a Berliner pfannkuchen or "Berliner" for short. But it's not a pancake, it's a jelly donut.

When you say, "Ich bin Berliner" or "Ich stamm' aus Berlin" you're saying "I am an inhabitant of Berlin." If you say, "Ich bin ein Berliner," then you're saying you're a jelly donut.

A "schnecke" is one of those curled-up sweet rolls. That's German for "snail".

[AnAmericanMother]

?Du auch? (See previous post)

[PAR35]

Randomly selecting a few for saving is unfair to the rest who will perish.

Nothing unfair about it. Everyone gets at least what they justly deserve. Some get unmerited grace.

[AnAmericanMother]

Hey, you know, there are whited sepulchres in every church.

Check C.S. Lewis's Screwtape for further information.

[Tax-chick]

Tiki’s #423 reminds me of something I tell my Sunday School classes: That every adult in the community has the obligation to help form the children in their faith, and the children need to make sure the adults do it. Ask questions, and if the adults don’t know the answers, tell them to find out.

[LordBridey]

Why do you need to pray to Mary to meditate? Might not asking the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth be more appropriate?

If you really want to understand the rosary, no one has ever said it better than Pope John Paul II in his apostolic letter entitled, " Rosarium Virginus Mariae." And there are plenty of scripture verses included to keep fellas with a penchant for cross-referencing quite satisfied. It's a brilliant treatment of the traditional devotion. I highly recommend it.

As for the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit leads to all truth through Christ's Church.

[AveMaria1]

I love the rosary and pray it every day. Saints such as St. Padre Pio prayed it continuously. In many pictures of Mother Teresa of Calcutta, you will notice a rosary in her hand. She stood at the UN and in front of everyone, and a rosary with her, she condemned abortion. The late Holy Father, John Paul II, also prayed many rosaries a day.

Look where it got them...
They were able to accomplish things that are not accomplishable on a ‘natural’ level; the supernatural elements were present.

Ave Maria!

[markomalley]

What does that word mean?

It means a group of people who believe the see of Peter (i.e., the Papacy) is currently vacant.

There are a group (groups) of schismatics who believe that a valid pope has not been elected. Some say that +Blessed John XXIII was the last validly elected one, some say +Pius XII was the last. These groups really got active following the Vatican II Council.

There are lots of folks, including many of us who are on Free Republic, who are "traddies" -- traditionalists who object to many of the abuses that have occurred in recent decades in the Church (usually done "in the spirit of" Vatican II (barf)), many of whom prefer attending the Mass celebrated according to the Missal of 1962 (the last edition put out while it was still celebrated in Latin). But a 'traddie' recognizes and supports the Pope. A sedevacanist does not do that.

Although they are small in number, they put out material that is identified, illicitly, as Catholic. That is why they are of concern.

Having said that, thanks for asking (sincerely).

[GoLightly]

My in-laws are 2nd generation, 100% Polish & I wrote it phonetically from the way they say it. I think they'd be aghast if they knew they were using a German word. LOL They used it like a generic form of sweet roll, not any particular kind. This might help me track down the area in Poland their family came from. It would be really funny if they were from the same area where a good share of my German ancestors left in the 1850's. :o)

I don't know the vowel in pÄ…czek, but I'd think the word would be said something like paycheck? Shortening it would be like check, but I know they said it with an "n" sound in it.

I never could pronounce shtirtka (dishrag) properly, but I still use it anyway.

[markomalley]

YOPIOS means “your own private interpreation of scripture”

The YOPIOS defense is when a protestant and a Catholic look at the same passage and get two (usually diametrically opposed) interpretations.

Catholics interpret scripture in light of the Magesterium (teaching authority) of the Church. The Magesterium consists of the overall body of scripture, along with the oral tradition passed down from apostolic times. Many protestants believe that the Holy Spirit helps them understand scripture.

YOPIOS is a derogatory term used half-jokingly as the result of the multitude of protestant sects that exist...many of which have different interpretations between themselves, as well as the differences they’ll have with Catholics.

Again, glad you asked (wish I’d have seen this post when I answered the last one).