Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[1000 silverlings]

His answer was even if one did get back to him from the dead he wouldn't believe it, as he won't believe Moses or Christ.

."But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'" "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'"

"He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'" (Luke 16:19-31 )

[ears_to_hear]

So... What about the angels praying repetitiously? Revelation 4:8: “...and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.”

1st of all the scripture does not say the angels

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

When reading scripture you always need to know who the audience is and the circumstances and the creations of God involved.

In this case it is mysterious "beasts" not angels.

Second we have no record of God telling the beasts or the angels NOT to do repetitious prayer as we do having Christ telling men that .

Third

The angels do not know God as well as the saved do. They watch us to learn about God . They have never experienced mercy or had personal indwelling relationships with him . They were made for the purpose of worshiping God and they are used as messengers.

One of the reasons Satan so hates men is that God has granted us mercy that he and his minions will never receive

And, the liturgy of the synagogue was (and is) filled with repetition and formalized prayer. Christ said “use not vain repetitions, as the heathens do”. Were the Jews heathens? They prayed (and still pray) the sh’ma twice a day and, in their liturgy, the Shemoneh Esrei, the Kaddish, the morning blessings, the Aleinu, etc. Check out a Jewish siddur (missal) sometime; does it look more typically Protestant or Catholic?

God destroyed the temple and the priesthood in 70 AD. Jewish worship is no longer worship of the one true God. Their eyes are blinded until God opens them

I have no desire to pray as one with closed eyes do you?

[DungeonMaster]

What’s your point?

[1000 silverlings]

That the dead aren’t listening and they sure as heck ain’t answering their prayers.

[ears_to_hear]

Are you not washed in the blood of the lamb? If you are His He hears and answers your prayer.

[ears_to_hear]

Deuteronomy 32:4 --- He is the Rock, His work is perfect;For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psalm 7:11 -- God is a just judge,And God is angry with the wicked every day.
Isaiah 30:18 -- Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.
Isaiah 45:21 -- Tell and bring forth your case;Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
Acts 22:14 -- Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
1Peter 3:18 -- For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
Revelations 15:3 -- They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “ Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!

The scriptures tell us God is Just, it does not say God is "fair"

IF God was fair he would save no one because no one deserves to spend eternity with Him.

Was God fair to the heathen nations that He ordered the jews to slay?

Was God fair to Christ when he ordained the cross for an innocent Christ?

[1000 silverlings]

What if the saintly pius saint person you are asking for intercession from, is actually in hell? Now that would be creepy

[OLD REGGIE]

So, suppose I wanted, on my OWN volition, to ask Jesus’ Mother for something? It is my decision, and He did respond to her observation, “They have no wine” by CREATING 150 gallons of choice stuff. It was so good even the wine steward was blown away!

And so a good Son answers the desire of His Mother held in her heart!

Luke 8:
20] And he was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you."
[21] But he said to them, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it."

??????????????????????????????????????

[ears_to_hear]

YOPIOS!

Is not St Augustine one of the doctors of your church? It was his opinion too

[Frank Sheed]

I thought leg wrestling rules stated that “uncle” was the appropriate cry of defeat!

I have a sincere question. Why does this have to be a discussion with someone who claims victory and wants to have a “win.” Do you get together at meetings and gleefully state how you slew another ignorant Catholic? Didn’t Christ’s victory count enough for you?

We are all Christians and you sincerely interpret Scripture at times at variance with how the Catholic Church does. You can’t deny that or you would not have a soteriology different from ours and we’d have little to chat about except the drought in the Everglades. So what? There are those on this thread who once walked your walk and now walk ours. And, there are those who went vice-versa!

I am sad that you left the Catholic Church, but I pray for those who have left. There are some in my own family, in fact. If you wish to claim victory do so, FRiend.

Congratulations! You win for

“Y.O.P.I.O. on the Reason for Thread Discussions!”

;-o)

[Frank Sheed]

Mrs. Tax has an outstanding South African wine that I can recommend. Perhaps she will fill your glass and we can have a toast!

[N3WBI3]

What is YOPIOS!

[Frank Sheed]

Simply take your finger off the ? key and it will stop doing this ???????????????????????????

;-o)

[Frank Sheed]

Perhaps I will defer on an answer now. You seem to have your hands full with most of the people on this board!

;-o)

[AnAmericanMother]

He is God of the living, not the dead. He said so himself.

[ichabod1]

Raaahhhght. Nice Calvinism there ears. I assume you think you’re among the elect.

[Frank Sheed]

What is YOPIOS!

My friend, Petronski, can give you a dissertation on it. He can spot it a mile away.

[DungeonMaster]

He is God of the living, not the dead. He said so himself.

Is there a point to that statement?

[tiki]

How do you know that the person on earth that you ask to pray for you isn’t going to end up in hell? How do you know that your minister who is leading his flock isn’t going to hell? How do you know that the person who constantly quotes scripture on internet forums isn’t going to hell? How could a truly pious, SAINT go to hell? If he was truly pious and truly a Saint then he is with God.

[Frank Sheed]

Good to see you back. I have lost by copping the YOPIOS plea and now need legal Counsel, your Ladyship.

;-o)