Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Enosh]

"longest grace"

Dear Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive.

Oh... one thing, Lord. I ordered pizza and a brewski but that dude in a robe brought me this bread and wine.

:^D

[1000 silverlings]

lol. Here's an anecdotal story from my own experience, and I know we can all find bad examples, but anyway: We know a lady who goes to the Catholic church religiously. Whenever she can she encourages others to pray to Mary. The church she attends is Mary something or other, and first thing inside the door, is a big marble statue of Mary kneeling, about 10 times lifesize, welcoming you in.

Now this woman hates animals,poor people, anyone who is just not like her. She criticizes all the people who show up at church with her, as to their dress, behavior, etc. Constantly. She would not give a thirsty dog a drink of water on a hot day, she will walk right past it and kick it if she can.

The funny thing is, all her large family thinks this is a sainted individual, and I have no doubt they will be praying to her after she has left this world.

I find the whole thing sad, but also funny

[ears_to_hear]

Where does it say in scripture that God must be “fair”

[N3WBI3]

Thus we witness the problem with the assumption that man cannot "do" anything regarding his salvation. If man is incapable of "doing" anything, it requires that God pick and choose those He wishes to save.

Yea and if that were the case scripture might say thins like "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

The ones who aren't selected then have no responsibility for their damnation

Logical fallacy, if everyone is a sinner and thus deserving of death selecting a few to save does not mean those who were not saved deserved damnation any less than they already did.

[ears_to_hear]

LOL, great pic.

At church functions it is not the length of the prayer that is an issue but finding the pastor to say it before the food gets cold.

I like to ask blessings not only on the food but on the ones that took the time to prepare it and serve it and that will clean up...so I take some time .

I promise if you come to lunch I will have cold cuts and fruit :)

[DungeonMaster]

Asking members of the Church Triumphant in Heaven to pray for you is NOT “spiritism”.

How is talking to the dead ever not Spiritism? It's defined in the bible as spiritism and never redefined in any other way. Why not pray the way the bible says to pray?

[N3WBI3]

Jesus is WAY to the LORD

So they are wrong

My salvation lies in the Lord

technically all and the only salvation lies in Christ, not just yours.

enlightenment is a diversion.

So judgmental

I tire of the posts that continue to judge me.

There is little difference between what you call warning others and what you perceive as other judging you.

[Frank Sheed]

Beg your pardon! You feel, believe, claim that if it ain’t in Scripture, it is extra-Biblical.

Tell me where in Scripture the Canon of Scripture is defined? You can’t, it isn’t there, it is NOT a “red herring” and you know full well that a Council of the Church defined what books should be admitted (are inspired) and what was not! That explains why there is no Gospel of Judas, Thomas or Mary in your Bible!

The Bible didn’t fall from heaven, it had books that were removed by Luther (he would loved to have removed James! “Jimmy” gave him fits over “works”) and yet the Bible you rely on does not have a listing of what it should contain.

Interesting...and relevant. By whose Authority do you challenge me? YOPIOS!

[GoLightly]

I think God would love that prayer if it is from the heart of one of His elect. Just as a mother loves the happy chatter of her little tot more than her teenager reciting the declaration of independence.

That "if" is the big question, which is why I asked. I was bothered by the example used, cuz I am among the great unwashed. Anyone with a need to point a finger & laugh at someone, cuz some of us aren't quite worthy, here I am.

[Blogger]

Do not characterize what I “feel.”

I BELIEVE that if it CONTRADICTS Scripture then it should be rejected. You evidentally believe there is more to Scripture than what is currently in the Canon.

Either way, the subject was the worship of Mary. Introducing a debate on the Canon is a red herring. IOW, you are trying to change the subject, as you are doing with introducing Luther, the Councils and anything else you want to chant in your well-memorized mantras. I dont’ challenge you. I ignore something that was irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[Enosh]

"It's defined in the bible as spiritism"

That was necromancy.

[DungeonMaster]

That was necromancy.

Exactly.

[pjr12345]

Where does it say in scripture that God must be “fair”

Deuteronomy 32:4 --- He is the Rock, His work is perfect;For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 7:11 -- God is a just judge,And God is angry with the wicked every day.

Isaiah 30:18 -- Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.

Isaiah 45:21 -- Tell and bring forth your case;Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

Acts 22:14 -- Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.

1Peter 3:18 -- For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Revelations 15:3 -- They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “ Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!

[Ransomed]

Fair enough, from your point of view. I’m glad you don’t believe there is some sorta conpiracy of Mary worship amongst Catholics, just that we are ignorant of the Mary worship you believe we perform. That’s what I meant when I said you think we worship the Blessed Mother badly—the quality of worship has to go up when the worshipper admits that there actually is worship.

Freegards

[Frank Sheed]

Amazing story!

When I began to say the Rosary daily (with my Knights of Columbus rosary), it broke. I got another from the Council, and it broke. I found a good, solid one that my mother had given me for a gift and it broke!

Seeing where this was going, I ordered seven rosaries from Leaflet Missal including a “parachute string unbreakable version,” had them all blessed and put them all over the house. Not one has broken since!

I almost got the feeling that “something” skulked off until another day...

[tioga]

Enligtenment without Christ at the center is just that.....meaningless to me, they are of the world. There are many who call themselves spiritual and enlightened, who do not worship Jesus. I do not wish to follow them. We are all free to make those choices. Too many here think that a brief exchange through the internet allows them adequate insight into another’s soul and relationship to God. They are wrong.

[N3WBI3]

Enligtenment without Christ at the center is just that

I don't disagree with you on this I just want you to realize you passed judgment on someone else's beliefs.

[1000 silverlings]

oh, and I forgot. Even though she hates animals, she had a St. Francis statue in her yard for years. I never quite figured that one out

[pjr12345]

Yea and if that were the case scripture might say thins like "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God is making no arbitrary statement here. He has told us who He will have mercy and compassion upon: those who are in Christ Jesus.

"The ones who aren't selected then have no responsibility for their damnation"

Logical fallacy, if everyone is a sinner and thus deserving of death selecting a few to save does not mean those who were not saved deserved damnation any less than they already did.

Your assertion of a logical fallacy, is in fact, a logical fallacy. Arbitrary selection of a few souls for salvation, those souls being equally unworthy as every other soul, is wholly unfair. God is "no respecter of persons", and the same sentence of death stands for all. Picking and choosing shows partiality, and defies his own judgment applicable to all.

[Enosh]

1 Samuel 28:15 is an example of necromancy, praying to Mary isn't. Catholics aren't trying to "raise her up."

They don't expect her to open the door and ask, "Now what do you want?"