Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[AnAmericanMother]

First of all, praying to the dead is a sin. The dead are no less dead now than they were in OT times when that was made clear by the Word of God.

That is not Scriptural. The saints in heaven are NOT dead. They are in the complete fulness of life in God, to which we aspire on earth.

But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Luke 20:37-38

Then at the Transfiguration, Christ appears with Moses and Elijah - living, not dead.

[Running On Empty]

I beg your pardon.

I have not written that Protestants “prattle”. I was echoing what Protestants were saying about Catholics. I have never accused Protestants of prattle. I have Protestant siblings and I am very carefult to treat them and all like them with respect. “You must esteem the person of every man” says St. Peter in his epistle.

Find the place that I personally and directly said that Protestants (and their preachers) “prattle”. Just for the sake of clarity, I will say it again: I was repeating BACK what Protestants were saying about Catholics who “prattle”.

By now, that word prattle is starting to look ridiculous in print and worse in my brain.

I’m not at all concerned about what may be interpreted by saying this:

I’m not interested in continuing on this thread. I’ve reached a point where I don’t see any point in wasting any more time here.

So sayanara and may God bless each and everyone of us.

[tioga]

LOL, he makes no other comments to me except to judge me and finds me wanting. I am free to warn my brother, not to judge him. (or her as the case may be).

[N3WBI3]

You have my pardon, I was confusing you with the OP I was replying to, sorry..

[ears_to_hear]

Oops, I hiccuped.

"the devil made you do it " ...LOL

[1000 silverlings]

How do you know they went to heaven in the first place? After all, only God knows the heart of a person, we do not. The most pious appearing are not necessarily saints.

[AnAmericanMother]

It's just a Methodist custom! My grandfather used to tell the story about a Methodist preacher who opened his eyes after grace to find that all the fried chicken had been spirited off the platter while he was praying. The next time he said grace, he first took the serving fork and speared a large breast of chicken and held it down (and prayed twice as long).

This may have been autobiographical, but I'm not sure. He would just wink and smile if you asked outright.

[N3WBI3]

lol..

[Patriotic1]

The meeting seemed more like a race to see who could mumble the words fastest, and nobody beat the blue-haired old widows wearing way too much perfume. To this day I can walk into a RCC mass and whip off the prayers with no thought whatsoever.

So you can look into the hearts of those who are mumbling their prayers? And if you were praying with no thought at all, no one else was either?

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, how do we know that Moses and Elijah are in heaven? Or for that matter Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

. . . the Church, after careful examination with a skeptical eye, declares that the life, virtues, and miracles of a particular person were such that he or she is probably in heaven and may be honored as a saint. It's not an absolute pronouncement - only God can do that.

[tioga]

OMG, you told a joke? LOL

[Patriotic1]

When you say the rosary are your thoughts directed to Christ and the mysteries of His life and death or are they on Mary as you mouth the words.

Yes. Both. Sometimes on one, then another.

[ears_to_hear]

You continue to judge others. It is a cause of concern.

I asked questions. If the question make someone uncomfortable maybe they need to ask themselves why

However I do have the right and responsibility to judge the eternal state of the people I come into contact with

The idea that God wants us to walk though life without judging where we are to be or who we are to fellowship with is just not scriptural.

Scripture tells us we are to make right judgments (John 7:24 *24.* Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." ) How else would we know if we are unequally yoked or to flee from false teachers. We are told "by their fruits we will know them"

We are told "by their fruits we will know them"

[DungeonMaster]

You are trying to apply that verse to make spiritism ok. That’s not what the verse is about.

[markomalley]

Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys!

Serious question: can you please provide me a more exact reference than simply Ambrose? I just literally went through all of Ambrose's writings (located on newadvent.org) and could not find the term 'key' mentioned anywhere other than in ref to Jesus and to St. Peter.

In fact, the only place where I could find the quote (from a Google) was a site called immaculata-one. And that site looks to me as if it's about one step away from being a sedevacanist group. (Any site accusing BXVI of heresy is questionable in my book)

A serious request, above, as I'd like to read the context of the quote.

Thanks for your help!

[pjr12345]

The only prayer God hears from the unsaved is their prayer for Salvation generated by the Holy Spirit

How do you square one's free will with the compulsion of the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit is the originator, and not the man himself, then who can have free will?

Thus we witness the problem with the assumption that man cannot "do" anything regarding his salvation. If man is incapable of "doing" anything, it requires that God pick and choose those He wishes to save. The ones who aren't selected then have no responsibility for their damnation, and God's damning them is wholly unjust. An unjust Supreme Being is inferior to a just Supreme Being, and thus CANNOT be Supreme, that is CANNOT be God.

Any god that picks and choose who will be saved and who will be damned does not truly allow free will, and is unjust. Thankfully, this failed logic is a doctrine of man and not representative of the God of the Bible.

[AnAmericanMother]

Asking members of the Church Triumphant in Heaven to pray for you is NOT “spiritism”.

[ears_to_hear]

God forbid we be forced to eat cold food because we are worshipping and thanking Him

Much better to say "Bless us Oh Lord and these thy gifts we have received through thy bounty through Christ Our Lord"
Amen

Ok lets eat!

[1000 silverlings]

Moses was God's messiah to the Jewish nation, but I know of no Jews praying to him, wherever he is. Elijah was taken directly to heaven on the chariot, I know of no Jews or Christians who pray to him. Same with the rest of them. Isaac and Jacob, Abraham and their wives were put bodily in the cave at Malpechah, no one prays to them that I'm aware of.

It's only when we come to man made religions where we find men and women doing whatever they feel like doing,doing what seems good to themselves, making it up, without using God's revealed Truth.