Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Uri’el-2012]

I agree with E_T_H completely.

I know her testimony and have known her on FR for many years.

b'shem Yah'shua

[DungeonMaster]

Why do you need to pray to Mary to meditate? Might not asking the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth be more appropriate?

Exactly. Or why not pray the way the bible says?

[AnAmericanMother]

But the ones I have are so PRETTY!

[1000 silverlings]

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

I don't see, "unto priests, my mother, or my friend John", on the list.

[DungeonMaster]

First of all, praying to the dead is a sin. The dead are no less dead now than they were in OT times when that was made clear by the Word of God. But why not simply pray the way the bible says to pray and add nothing to that. Isn’t the bible sufficient?

[pjr12345]

For brevity, I left out the following:

Walk (enter)
Genuflect
Stand
Sit
Stand
Sit
Stand
Kneel
Stand
Shake (”sign of peace”)
Sit
Walk (communion)
Kneel
Sit
Stand
Genuflect
Walk (exit)

[tioga]

Oh, but YOU need to beware of Satan’s power yourself.

[tioga]

Oh, but YOU need to beware of Satan’s power yourself.

[AnAmericanMother]

I have that Tshirt, and it's such fun to wear.

About 99 out of a hundred just look at it without seeing it, then the hundredth person starts laughing and pointing . . . .

[tioga]

Oops, I hiccuped.

[DungeonMaster]

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

I don't see, "unto priests, my mother, or my friend John", on the list.

Exactly. One of many many biblical teachings about prayer. There is no reason to go beyond those teachings.

[tioga]

You continue to judge others. It is a cause of concern.

[AnAmericanMother]

My grandfather-in-law the Methodist minister said absolutely the longest grace before meals that I have ever heard. The food got cold!

[N3WBI3]

tioga,

If you heard a Buddhist tell you x is the path to enlightenment would you not tell them they are wrong? If a Mormon told you Jesus and Satan were brothers would you not tell them they are wrong?

[AnAmericanMother]

LOL!

There is a naughty dog that wanders around at night (the trashy people up behind us never keep her tied up or in a fence) and barks at the ancient dog next door.

The ancient dog next door is a Particular Friend of Shelley's, so whenever Naughty Dog shows up, Shelley feels called on to threaten him with mayhem for bothering Ancient Dog.

Even at 3 a.m. and when she's inside.

[N3WBI3]

Hmmm, I myself am not one for a long pre-meal grace. I don’t want to teach my daughters that mealtime, and bedtime are the ‘right’ times for substantial prayer. Opening the day and when I do my quite time is when I really try to pray well..

[ears_to_hear]

I think I know what you mean but you may want to expand on this as it will be taken wildly out of its intended meaning.

There is a general assumption that God "hears"( attend to) all the prayers of men.

Scripture indicates otherwise.

Jer 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Hsa 5:6 They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find [him]; he hath withdrawn himself from them.

Sin separates unregenerate men from God. Nothing can separate the saved from God because all of our sin was propitiated for at the cross. But the unsaved carry their own sin and God does not hear them

Psa 66:18 — If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:

Pro 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.

Pro 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Jhn 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

What is the will of God?

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The only prayer God hears from the unsaved is their prayer for Salvation generated by the Holy Spirit

[Uri’el-2012]

You continue to judge others. It is a cause of concern.

352 posted on 06/06/2007 11:00:09 AM MDT by tioga

Yah'shua commended us to Judge !

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance,
but judge righteous judgment.

b'shem Yah'shua

[ears_to_hear]

Exactly

[ears_to_hear]

I remember that, also we never took our coats off for a quick get away:)