Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[1000 silverlings]

And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.

And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

—1 John 5:14-15

[Tax-chick]

Some of my children make me wonder, "How did I end up with this kid?", but that's not a problem with Pat. He's mine!

[Running On Empty]

How did you know so much about my dog? :-)

[ears_to_hear]

Thanks for the response.

Funny, I was raised Catholic and ended up a Protestant.

I never held a bible to read until i was in my 30s.

Methodists tend to be a mainline church that focuses on social issues more than the gospel. Was that true of yours?

I think evangelical churches (for the most part ) are a little more gospel focused.

[N3WBI3]

LOL

[Tax-chick]

:-).

If we’re not having fun here, we should all go clean something, right?

[1000 silverlings]

So does Mary open and close the womb too now?

All throughout the bible, we see that God alone takes credit and responsibility for bringing life into the world. Eve gets a man with help from the Lord. The Jewish matriarchs pray to God for children. God gives Sarah a son, Isaac. The point is clear. In Godly marriages God is a partner. Now however, even that is usurped from him by people making up their own religion.

[Tax-chick]

Our parish plans to put one out in the near future. I'll send it to you once it is printed :-)

Please do, and I'll send your parish a donation. My Weight Watchers cookbooks have lots of Mediterranean recipes. I make baba-ganoush at least once a week in the summer; in fact, I bought an eggplant on the way home from gymnastics yesterday, and I need to get it cooked!

I got a Middle Eastern cookbook out of the library a couple of weeks ago and made a couple of recipes - a cabbage and chickpea dish with walnuts was really good - but the cookbook wasn't particularly well written and didn't have nutrition information.

[tioga]

It is effective at emptying your heart and mind to listen. It’s probably why I am at such peace at the end.

[N3WBI3]

I’m getting weary of this kind of sweeping generalization.

Says the man who makes a sweeping generalization about how prots prattle in their messages...

It’s showing contempt towards a people of a particular Faith, dumping them all like clones into one basket.

Says the man who says prot preachers all prattle and would assume mine does rather than read what he had to say. I have attended Catholic services in Italy, NY, Minnesota, all and all at more parishes than I could count and while the order might differ more and more thats pretty much the contents of a given service.

The macro picture you paint of Catholics doesn’t fit a large number of them.

I did not paint picture of Catholic people, I painted a picture of catholic mass. I am sure there are catholics craving meat but they are not getting it in mass. And there are *many* catholics who would not know meat if it sas spoon fed to them, they might wonder 'why does the service have to be so long'..

[ears_to_hear]

To? I am joining myself to my Lord in contemplative prayer, while asking for assistance for someone. I concentrate on Jesus and let the Lord sort the rest out in His way.

Define contemplative. How does one "contemplate with the mind and speak words with the mouth directed at another. Why not ask the one that Jesus sent to be the helper, the one that he sent to "lead you into all truth " ( The Holy Spirit )

[ears_to_hear]

That was beautiful. You are blessed with a godly Pastor .God is good!

[ears_to_hear]

WOW! That’s a pretty huge assumption to make. Simply saying that exact words Jesus Christ told us to, starting with “Our Father”....think about it. Calling God Father! What power, what comfort, what safety!

That is true for His children, but those that have not come to Christ in faith are not the children of God. The only ones that can call God "Father" are His adopted children.

God is not the Father of the unsaved, He gave that prayer specifically to His disciples that were called by Him.

[N3WBI3]

ty, Pastor John is a very humble man and I am eternally grateful that despite his popularity and his gift at the pulpit he does not presume to run the church. The eldership at Bethlehem is so strong in how they attack challenges.

Free book Sunday (paster John writes a book a year, and because he is given a month off to do so, he gives out the book one Sunday when it goes into print) and all the proceeds from sales after that go to Desiring God...

[ears_to_hear]

I don’t really care about your preacher’s ramblings.

I will pray that God gives you the desire to eat meat :)

[Blogger]

There are many things we do out of ignorance or conditioning that we do not recognize on ourselves. Jesus said “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” The mantra of the church is that praying to Mary and giving her titles of God are really not worship but ‘veneration.’ To the outside eye though, it looks exactly like worship. Do you all consciously set up another god? No. I don’t believe most do (though there are some who would like her ‘deified’. They are a fringe).

[ears_to_hear]

How often? Under what circumstances?

[ears_to_hear]

Just be careful about accusing me of worshipping pagan gods, I am not

Are you absolutely sure? What is the basis for prayer to other than God? What if you are being deceived by Satan? How would you know?

[pjr12345]

Catholic Mass for Some (notice, no sweeping generalization)

1.) Go to the Saturday Night, 5:30 p.m., "quicky";

2.) Arrive 5:32 p.m. -- Take seat in back near door;

3.) 5:33 to 5:45 p.m. -- Look around to see if you know anybody;

4.) 5:45 p.m. -- Wonder how long the priest will drone on about whatever the heck he is talking about during the homily;

5.) 5:50 p.m. -- Hope the communion line moves faster. Why do so many people insist on receiving the host in their hands, don't they know how much longer that makes this last?!

6.) 5:52 p.m. -- Communion is ending. Do I duck out now, or wait until the last song starts?

7.) 5:55 p.m. -- Guilt held me until the start of the last song. If I leave now, I won't have to talk to anyone, and I can get to my poker game on time (okay, that's a low blow, sorry.);

8.) 5:58 p.m. -- Whew! I'm glad I went tonight! Tomorrow I'd have to sit there for nearly a full hour.

[N3WBI3]

7) That was a low blow, Friday is for Poker, Saturday is bingo night..