Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[tioga]

Ah, but there is beauty in the repetitiveness of the
Rosary. Instead of taking an emotionally troubling problem to the Lord with endless lamentations about MY problems, I go to the Rosary.

I lay the problem at His feet and start reciting the Rosary, and it is repetitive. The calming words disappear and I can concentrate on the life of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. I can cry with him at the foot of the cross and cry again with tears of joy when he is Ascended into Heaven. When all is said and done, I know the Lord has heard my prayers and watched his faithful daughter unite herself (to the best of her ability) to His Son.

He will assist me with my problems in His time. I am rested and united with the Lord — AND at peace. This is a miracle to me. Praise God.

[tiki]

There really are too many things that God put on the signs to lead me to the Catholic Church but another one of them is a hymn we used to sing, Let all Mortal Flesh Keep Silence.

The cite in the hymnal just said "Liturgy of St. James. Trans. Gerard Moultrie 1829-1885. That was sooooo many years ago but I always wondered about it. It was so profound, almost like a creed. I always loved it and in my 20s really started contemplating the lyrics. The internet wasn't around so that I could research like we can today but it always felt so holy and I loved to sing it.

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
and with fear and trembling stand;
ponder nothing earthly minded,
for with blessing in his hand
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
as of old on earth he stood,
Lord of lords in human vesture,
in the Body and the Blood
he will give to all the faithful
his own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
spreads its vanguard on the way,
as the Light of Light descendeth
from the realms of endless day,
that the powers of hell may vanish
as the darkness clears away.

At his feet the six-winged seraph;
cherubim with sleepless eye,
veil their faces to the Presence,
as with ceaseless voice they cry,
"Alleluia, alleluia!
Alleluia, Lord Most High!"

[ichabod1]

I don’t really care about your preacher’s ramblings.

[ears_to_hear]

Shortened version: Keys in the Bible always symbolize authority: Revelation 1:18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell. Isaiah 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open. Peter is the only apostle given a ‘key’ by Jesus, setting him apart:

Can you show us the scripture where Jesus tells Peter to pass the keys, or any of the gifts given for founding the church on to his successors?
By the way here is who St Ambrose though had the keys

Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys!

Peter is the only apostle given a ‘key’ by Jesus, setting him apart: Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,

What did Augustine think that meant?

..Why have I wanted to make this little introdu Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.

Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS: 1. There is no other disciple mentioned as frequently and prominently in the New Testament as Peter.

In jewish tradition the leader was always listed first in a list of names. After the resurrection Peers name is NEVER listed first.

Read what Paul says here.

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

This indicates a shared rule of the new church.

2. Peter served as: a. Group spokesman following Pentecost (Acts 1:14 +)

Indeed and may of us believe this was the meaning of the "keys" , that He would be granted the privilege of OPENING the gospel to the gentiles.

b. God chooses Peters in Acts 10_11 to introduce the Gentiles into the Church, and those who objected ‘held their peace’ (Acts 11:18) at Peter’s testimony

The first church council was called because of peters compromise, It was led by James not Peter, it was James that made the ruling not Peter.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood
. Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

[pjr12345]

She, herself, can do nothing for me, but in turn to ask Jesus to help.

Let's say this is true. How is it that a mere mortal, with limited attention-span and capabilities, can hear the prayers of hundreds of millions of RCC faithful and attend to each one? This applies to all your "saints". Unless you grant them god-like powers, they can't. If you grant them god-like powers, then you've re-established the pagan system of hierarchical gods under the cover of the Christian tag.

[N3WBI3]

I figured you would say as much, its easy to slander someone without actually knowing what they have to say.... Just like its easy to repeat the same prayer over and over again. Paul wrote some Christians are babes needing milk and some are grown in the spirit needing meat.

5 minutes of scripture reading, A 15 minute message, 10 minute communion, 10 minutes of hymns, and five minutes of collection, wash-rinse-repeat next Sunday is not for someone craving meat.

[ears_to_hear]

Why do you need to pray to Mary to meditate? Might not asking the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth be more appropriate?

[Terabitten]

I think it may be used in some of the non Catholic liturgical churches, but not in Protestant churches.

I'd love to know what kind of churches you've attended. I grew up in the Assemblies of God and various nondenominational churches, but also attended Baptist and Methodist churches, and have ended up in the Presbyterian Church of America. I've heard the Lord's Prayer recited in all of them.

Admittedly, the UMC and the PCA recite it more often than the Baptists and the AG, but I certainly heard it in all of the churches I attended.

[NYer]

"A dog's gotta do what a dog's gotta do, even at 3 in the morning"

[tioga]

Nope, they are not Gods. They are saints.......and Mary is Jesus’ mother. Life’s struggles are difficult enough, I will ask for help where I chose, just as you are free to do. I am not attempting to convert you to the rosary, but to explain my choice in prayer. You are free to accept it or not. Just be careful about accusing me of worshipping pagan gods, I am not.

[pjr12345]

Interesting quote by Augustine.

What is your source for the ‘list order equates authority’ assertion? It is quite interesting, and I’d like to know more. To that end, I’ve pinged XeniaSt, who seems to carry A LOT of knowledge about Jewishness with him.

As to the Council of Jerusalem, the issue was a dispute between certain, unnamed Pharissees-turned-Christian, and Paul and Barnabas. Peter offered up the corroborating evidence of his experience with the household of Cornelius. James then offers his opinion as to what ought to be done. The “apostles and elders, with the whole church” approved the final communication to be sent to Antioch. It happens that the main content of that letter was the exact advice offered by James - a testament to the high regard the Believers held for James.

[ears_to_hear]

Dearest Lowered, we jes wanna pry, we jes wanna let you kneew that wyee kneeow yore in Heaven, and we jes pry that yore naime be hollowed all across the werld lahk it is up there in heaven. And Lowered, we jes pray that you-ll feed us with the mailk of rahtchussnuss tadaiy, and have murcy own us, Lowered, we jes aisk that you-ll haive murcy own us and we jes promise, Lowered, to be compassionate to others.... blah blah blah.
Tell me, which one is prattling mindlessly (and endlessly)?

I think God would love that prayer if it is from the heart of one of His elect. Just as a mother loves the happy chatter of her little tot more than her teenager reciting the declaration of independence.

BTW even the most eloquent prayer offered by a sinner is not heard by God

[N3WBI3]

BTW even the most eloquent prayer offered by a sinner is not heard by God

I think I know what you mean but you may want to expand on this as it will be taken wildly out of its intended meaning.

[Tax-chick]

I’m a nonfiction writer, actually.

[Running On Empty]

I’m getting weary of this kind of sweeping generalization.

It’s showing contempt towards a people of a particular Faith, dumping them all like clones into one basket. The truth is that there are a great number of Catholics who live by, for and with their Faith moment by moment. They are aware of their presence to God in the sacrament of the moment and they don’t always measure prayertime in a 24-hour period—their goal is to be standing present before God in all that they say and do throughout the day.

I am privileged to know a lot of Catholics like that.

The macro picture you paint of Catholics doesn’t fit a large number of them.

I am reminded at this moment of the wonderful chapter of “Way of Perfection” by St. Teresa of Avila where she expands on the prayer of the “Our Father”. What a wonderful chapter that is! How much a person can learn about meditating on the depths of this prayer with her guidance.

This is the same Teresa who wrote that each of us needs to look after his own care in keeping faith with the Lord, and as for others, “the Lord will take care of his own.”

“This is not a time for believing in everyone. Believe only those whom you see modeling their lives on Christ.”
-—St. Teresa of Jesus

[tiki]

Exactly, sometimes I don’t even know what I want, much less need and so don’t have the words to use. I do tell Him that I know He knows me better than I know myself to open my heart to Him. The rosary is also a time to listen to God, to empty ourselves of our own words and wait on the Lord.