Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Blogger]

I am saying that Roman Catholicism exalts Mary to a status that is very much godlike. It calls on them to pray TO her. Through its teachings are pre-written prayers, they petition her for things such as her protection and provision. And, in popular practice and sometimes official doctrine she is given titles of God such as Mediator. Advocate. Redeemer. (all with the appendage of “co” included of course, but the point stands). NOWHERE does Scripture tell us to treat Mary in the way that the Catholic church treats her. So, in answer to your question, bad at worshipping her? No. Refusing to admit. Yes.

[Frank Sheed]

I didn’t mean to imply that you did live on wine. I don’t eat very much in the form of solids, so I do live on beer, however.

Cheerios and Chablis is an acquired taste, but not bad.

;-o)

[Tax-chick]

Pretzels.

[Enosh]

"In the 30 years i have been a protestant I have NEVER heard the Lords prayer said in a church service or in a bible study or meeting."

I'm sorry, friend, but that claim is unbelievable.

[ears_to_hear]

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions
The key word is vain. Jesus refers in the same chapter to vanity in almsgiving and vanity in fasting. The lesson is the same in all three: what is done for the sake of show has already gotten its base reward - there is no heavenly reward. Jesus is not saying that almsgiving, fasting or repeating a prayer is proscribed, only those tainted by vanity or desire for human approbation.

Sandy, vain and vanity are not the same words, they have different meanings, vain means empty , useless as in "he tried in vain to do something".

In the case of vain repetitions the greek is translated
1) to stammer 2) to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

The pagans often used mantras much like people use in yoga or other hindi practice.

Things like the rosary qualify as vain repetition. Catholics admit they are not really consecrating on the prayers, but are meditating on the "mysteries." The words are simply repetitive from memory if that is true.

[ears_to_hear]

Did your family worship and pray together? Did your family teach you scripture and talk about God to you?

[ears_to_hear]

I'm sorry, friend, but that claim is unbelievable.

Well it is true.

I think it may be used in some of the non Catholic liturgical churches, but not in Protestant churches.

We prefer to approach the throne of God with our words :)

[AnAmericanMother]

Belloc deserves to remembered for the Cautionary Tales alone!

. . every time she shouted, "FIRE!"
They only answered, "Little liar."
And therefore, when her Aunt returned,
Matilda, and the house, were burned.

- "Matilda, Who Told Lies and Was Burned to Death."

[ears_to_hear]

Are you a protestant . Where do you go to services?

[Salvation]

** not really consecrating**

I don’t think any of us can consecrate anything. That is the job of the priest.

I think you probably mean concentrating.

And, no, the prayer of the Rosary is not in vain. You have no idea of the benefits of saying the Rosary. For instance, have you ever heard the story about keeping the Muslims away by saying the Rosary? I will post the links in the next post to you.

Please do not try to put words into the mouths of Catholics and assume what we believe according to Catholic tradition.

[Frank Sheed]

Plus there are a gazillion “Scripture Rosary” pamphlets that have a different Scripture verse after each Hail Mary! Or, for those not interested in the Hail Mary, why not say only ONE and then pray completely to God using the Divine Mercy Chaplet shown here:

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

The ideal is not the constant repetition of a mantra. For those who say the Rosary prayerfully (or the Divine Mercy), it is to enter into a Meditation on scenes from the Life of Christ or to lift our minds to God. It is actually a very Christological devotion and the addition of the Luminous Mysteries by John Paul II made it even more so!

[Salvation]

Lepanto is just one reason to say the Rosary:

Lepanto, 1571: The Battle That Saved Europe

Celebrating the Battle of Lepanto

Clash of civilizations: Battle of Lepanto revisited

Lepanto, Bertone e Battesimo, Oh My!

Lepanto Sunday

Our Lady of the Rosary of La Naval (A Mini-Lepanto in the Philippines)

Swiss Guards at the Battle of Lepanto, 7 October 1571

Battle of Lepanto

LEPANTO, 7 OCTOBER 1571: The Defense of Europe

Battle of Lepanto

Remember Lepanto!

The Battle of Lepanto

On This Day In History, The Battle of Lepanto

The Battle of Lepanto

Chesterton's Lepanto

The Miracle At Lepanto...

Lepanto

The Naval Battle of Lepanto

The Battle of Lepanto

Call to Prayer 12:00 EST 17 November: This Lepanto Moment [Read only]

A Call To Prayer: This Lepanto Moment[Read only]

[AnAmericanMother]

Catholics admit they are not really consecrating on the prayers, but are meditating on the "mysteries." The words are simply repetitive from memory if that is true.

You're merely speculating with no data, and in point of fact you're wrong. (I hope you really mean "concentrating" and not "consecrating".)

If you say the Rosary in the Bavarian manner (as I was taught to do years ago), the Mystery goes into the pause in the Hail Mary, and you say it aloud so that it changes the meaning and is part of the recitation. So the Hail Mary changes with every decade.

[Frank Sheed]

NOWHERE does Scripture tell us to treat Mary in the way that the Catholic church treats her.

And the Canon of Scripture is listed on page? Darn, I can't seem to find it. Could you help?

[ears_to_hear]

And, no, the prayer of the Rosary is not in vain. You have no idea of the benefits of saying the Rosary. For instance, have you ever heard the story about keeping the Muslims away by saying the Rosary? I will post the links in the next post to you.

They have their own vain repetitions they do with their prayer beads.
Your comment does not respond to the issue. You said it has "value" in response to my misspelled comment on the fact that Catholics say that they are meditating on the mysteries so that would be where their focus was, not on the "prayer" itself. How beneficial you see it as does not respond to that issue

Please do not try to put words into the mouths of Catholics and assume what we believe according to Catholic tradition.

When you say the rosary are your thoughts directed to Christ and the mysteries of His life and death or are they on Mary as you mouth the words.

Who is the center of your meditation Christ or Mary?

[GoLightly]

Let's talk YIPOS (or whatever all of the correct letters are that have been used to disparage Protestants being our own "popes")

(i) A social religion

We don't gather together to get everything handed to us by people who claim that God put them in charge for our protection. It is the journey together that gives meaning & as we work & struggle things out together in love, the message to love one another takes on the greatest meaning. It's not difficult to love those who agree with you about everything. Maintaining love when there is disagreement is more difficult, but not after bringing in our love for God first & above everyone & everything else.

Those of us in the YIPOS camp may have some or most everything "wrong", but none of us think that we're done yet or that we'll be done trying to figure it all out before we draw our last breath. Does God want us to know everything correctly or does He want us to remain engaged, engaged with each other with Him at the center?

[Frank Sheed]

Yes, beer and pretzels is a good, solid meal.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, I've been to Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of God, Church of God of Prophecy, Church of Christ (not UCC), and Baptist services, and heard the Lord's Prayer just about every time.

Since when are those not Protestant churches?

[ears_to_hear]

This is irrelevant as Satan can and does imitate God and preform false miracles.

Who did those miracles God or Mary? Did God NEED Mary to do them? Whos is getting the glory?

[Salvation]

I meditate on both.

BTW, did you read any of the links and find out how the Rosary saved Europe from being invaded by the Moslems?