Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[markomalley]

Tts 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tts 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Mat 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
Mat 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
Mat 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

And there’s more, but you should get the idea. As a “Bible believing Christian,” I’m certain that you are far more famliar with the scriptures than me, a lowly Catholic.

So why do you keep on? Why do you maintain in your heresy? Why do you not follow the scriptures that are written above? Is it because you only choose to believe the parts of Scripture that fit your needs? Are you a Bible believer or only a believer in the parts of the Bible that fit your needs at the time?

Why don’t you just do I Cor 5:5 (I’ll let you look that up for yourself) and be done with it...

[markomalley]

Oh, and here’s another classic:

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

Oh, you will note that I am even using your Protestant KJV version...out of regard, so the message is sent loud and clear.

Please try to act scripturally on this board...if you are, in fact, a Bible believing Christian...

[markomalley]

ping to 1162, sorry...

[AlaninSA]

I will add you to my Rosary intentions.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And I will pray to Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit might open your ears to the word of God.

[Mad Dawg]

If you didn't "feel like" at any point while you were doing it, would you continue to do it?

Sometimes I'm stubborn and/or patient. So, yeah, I might. I mean in some things every incremental effort is met with an incremental reward. In other things it's more like every effort is met with an increasing "head" of ,as it were, potential energy which doesn't become kinetic for long while, but when it does, blammo! SOmetimes I don't "Get" something for a long time, but when I finally get it I REALLY understand it.

So that kind of thing encourages me to persist.

I'd have NO problem trying to explain it to him. LOL

Gitta admit, I wasn't really picking up a 'shrinking violet' vibe from you.

Be well, you'll be in my thoughts today.

(I'm so dumb I didn't even notice this article was an attempt to convert. THAT worked, didn't it?)

[GoLightly]

Sometimes I'm stubborn and/or patient. So, yeah, I might. I mean in some things every incremental effort is met with an incremental reward. In other things it's more like every effort is met with an increasing "head" of ,as it were, potential energy which doesn't become kinetic for long while, but when it does, blammo! SOmetimes I don't "Get" something for a long time, but when I finally get it I REALLY understand it.

So that kind of thing encourages me to persist.

We seem to be hardwired for meditation, least some of us & He made us, which is why I don't have a need to go around ripping the rosary out of the hands of everyone that uses one. I don't think that tapping into the part of the brain that gets activated during meditation takes anyone specifically nearer to God, as non-Christian meditation stimulates the brain in the same area as Christian meditation. It is something of *this* world, a method.

Gitta admit, I wasn't really picking up a 'shrinking violet' vibe from you.

Face to face confrontation gives me panic attacks. I used to hide in another room or get into my car to escape when my ex-husband became confrontational. After the dust settled, I'd write a lengthy letter to him & splain myself. After, we'd have real dialog. I once taped a heated conversation we had, to show him how he sounded to me. Instead, I discovered that all of my speech sounded like a question, like I was asking him for permission to think what I thought.

As I said, I'd have NO problem telling the Priest. He'd give me a pile of material to study after. Meanwhile, if he was a good Pastor, I'm sure I'd also be given the work around that wasn't in direct violation of my beliefs.

Be well, you'll be in my thoughts today.

Thanx, I appreciate it. I know I still owe you a FReepmail. I started writing a response, but haven't finished it yet. My thinking has been getting better, but everything still takes more effort than I'm used to.

(I'm so dumb I didn't even notice this article was an attempt to convert. THAT worked, didn't it?)

Body parts left lying all over the place! Assuming our beliefs aren't grounded in anything that's all that important, BIG mistake.

[1000 silverlings]

You may indeed consign me to the heretic bin, for the word used means "to choose", and here are the biblical equivalents of the word in other passages. "The Truth" is what is chosen,, and not manmade rites and superstitions

Hebrews 24

By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Philippians 1:21

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Matthew 18

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased

as to

Rom 16:17

now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

This is biblical teaching that Paul is refering to, and NOT to manmade teachings of the Catholic church, big, big differnce.

[markomalley]

You may indeed consign me to the heretic bin,

Actually, I call you a heretic because of your obstinate denial of the scriptures that I posted above. You repeatedly accuse us of blasphemy and yet you keep talking to us. You accuse us of heresy, yet you keep talking. You keep talking.

The verses cited above clearly state that you should make your point and then shake the dust off our feet. Frankly, you would be entirely appropriate to give our bodies up to Satan for their destruction (1 Cor 5:5).

Yet you keep talking

And talking

And talking.

That talking continually when it is obvious that you are beating your head against the wall, is vain and is against scripture.

That's my point.

And, in order to pull the beam from my eye, I'll cease here, as well.

[DungeonMaster]

A proper prayer, like the Rosary, provides the framework so that one can meditate upon the mysteries of our faith. The beauty of the virtual rosary is that one can read the Bible verses associated with each mystery as one recites the prayers and think upon that. It involves mental and spiritual discipline and channels one’s thoughts and prayers towards God, rather than, as it rather pointedly states in my previous post, the banal, or the ego, in wandering fashion.

The heathen can say the same things about his vain repititions too. But the words of the bible can't be ignored. I don't see anything in the bible about mental and spiritual discipline nor channeling. Even those sound like new age concepts. Why not simply pray the way the bible says to pray?

[narses]

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[Salvation]

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