Posted on 06/02/2007 12:50:30 PM PDT by Titanites
God is not the author of sin. I agree.
The sin of the garden, however, was part of creation...and God knew it ahead of time.
If by this you mean that God is the final cause of everything, then there should be no problem. But if you mean that God is the proximate cause of everything, then there is a problem. For the latter would imply that God Himself is causing my fingers to type this post, which is not true. It is the latter view which leads to strange doctrines implying lack of free-will and such.
Yes, and this does not imply, in any way, that God caused it, or that Adam didn't freely choose it.
You're getting that argument from that kooky libertarian (ex?)Freeper who used to capitalize all the nouns in his posts. What was his name again?
His name was orthodox presbyterian. OP never believed that God authored sin. In short, I’d say he believes the sin was planned by God, BUT that the humans did make their own choices.
If conversion stories and personal testimonies irritate you so, may I suggest that the more appropriate response is not to read them rather than to whine about them.
Well, it must be God leading him away, since he has no free will.
Ears to hear said in this thread that God is the 1st cause of every event. Therefore, God caused them to sin. Which means they were not free to either sin or not sin.
God is the first cause of everything, therefore he’s the first cause of every event.
However, eth is probably referring to God’s plan. He authored it. It included the fall.
However, the author of a book is not liable for the acts that the characters in the book commit. They commit their own acts IF they are free. And these characters were free.
Calvinists believe that humans have free will. They just think that they’ll always without fail use that free will unwisely.
That is in stark contrast to much of what has been said on this thread.
That’s an ambiguously simplistic explanation, friend.
I was trying to write it correctly, fru.
If you wish to correct something, then do so. I’ll learn thereby.
That's a rather convenient lie. Always amusing to see someone declare something "lazy" when they're too lazy themselves when it comes to actually discussing it.
Does a depraved repeat pedophiliac have free will even if stats say that he’ll repeat his offense?
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
We have a pattern here.
1. We do not worship Mary. We only ask her to intercede on our behalf.
Actually, you DO "worship" her, you're just ever so careful to make the distinction between dulia and hyper-dulia.
2. Our basis for papal infallability is Biblical. It’s an interpretation, but it is based on Scripture.
I always love this one. Using sola scriptura to undermine sola scriptura. Priceless :)
3. Our basis for the Eucharist is also Biblical, but IMO, it’s not at all an interpretation. It’s a hard, cold fact straight from Christ Himself.
See how quickly interpretation suddenly becomes cold, hard, undeniable fact when you make the error in #2?
Hey no price gouging!
OP is a FReeper in good standing, who took a break from FReeping for awhile. I do that sometimes.
Xzins is correct: God is not the direct Author of Sin. Because it was the Father's Plan from all Eternity to glorify the Son as Creator, Redeemer, and Judge, it was necessary to permit an Antithesis to enter Creation so that the Son would have something to Redeem Creation from (and to be glorified as Judge of that Antithesis): i.e., freely-willed Sin.
I hope that explains my position, and I certainly hope I capitalized enough Nouns for everyone's liking. ;-)
John
Chapter 6
30 So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?
31 Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.
36 But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe.
37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.”
41 The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,”
42 and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring 18 among yourselves.
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.
47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
71 He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
Luke Ch 22
15 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover 5 with you before I suffer,
16 for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
18 for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 7 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.
21 “And yet behold, the hand of the one who is to betray me is with me on the table;
22 for the Son of Man indeed goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed.”
23 And they began to debate among themselves who among them would do such a deed.
Mark Ch 14
22 While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.”
23 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.
25 Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
26 Then, after singing a hymn, 9 they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Matthew Ch 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29 I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”
30 Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31 Then Jesus said to them, “This night all of you will have your faith in me shaken, 19 for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be dispersed’;
32 but after I have been raised up, I shall go before you to Galilee.”
Those verses are clearly allegories, or do you take everything in the Bible literally?
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