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MAJOR COUNCILS OF THE CHURCH - 1st Council of Nicaea - 325 A.D. (1st in a series)
Daily Catholic ^

Posted on 05/19/2007 3:06:54 PM PDT by NYer

INTRODUCTION

This council opened on 19 June in the presence of the emperor, but it is uncertain who presided over the sessions. In the extant lists of bishops present, Ossius of Cordova, and the presbyters Vitus and Vincentius are listed before the other names, but it is more likely that Eustathius of Antioch or Alexander of Alexandria presided. (see Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, ed. Norman P. Tanner S.J.)

The bold text in the profession of faith of the 318 fathers constitutes, according to Tanner "The additions made by the council to an underlying form of the creed", and that the underlying creed was most likely "derived from the baptismal formula of Caesarea put forward by the bishop of that city Eusebius" or that it "developed from an original form which existed in Jerusalem or at any rate Palestine". "A direct descent from the creed of Eusebius of Caesarea is manifestly out of the question." Vol 1, p2)

The figure of 318 given in the heading below is from Hilary of Poitier and is the traditional one. Other numbers are Eusebius 250, Eustathius of Antioch 270., Athanasius about 300, Gelasius of Cyzicus at more than 300.

THE PROFESSION OF FAITH OF THE 318 FATHERS

  1. We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia] of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten [Gr. gennethenta, Lat. natum] not made [Gr. poethenta, Lat. factum], CONSUBSTANTIAL [Gr. homoousion, Lat. unius substantiae (quod Graeci dicunt homousion)] with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those in earth; for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit.

  2. And those who say
    1. "there once was when he was not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and that
    2. he came to be from
      • things that were not, or
      • from another hypostasis [Gr. hypostaseos] or substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia],
      affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration

      these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.

    CANONS

    1. If anyone in sickness has undergone surgery at the hands of physicians or has been castrated by barbarians, let him remain among the clergy. But if anyone in good health has castrated himself, if he is enrolled among the clergy he should be suspended, and in future no such man should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this refers to those who are responsible for the condition and presume to castrate themselves, so too if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians or by their masters, but have been found worthy, the canon admits such men to the clergy.

    2. Since, either through necessity or through the importunate demands of certain individuals, there have been many breaches of the church's canon, with the result that men who have recently come from a pagan life to the faith after a short catechumenate have been admitted at once to the spiritual washing, and at the same time as their baptism have been promoted to the episcopate or the presbyterate, it is agreed that it would be well for nothing of the kind to occur in the future. For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism, for the apostle's words are clear: "Not a recent convert, or he may be puffed up and fall into the condemnation and the snare of the devil". But if with the passage of time some sin of sensuality is discovered with regard to the person and he is convicted by two or three witnesses, such a one will be suspended from the clergy. If anyone contravenes these regulations, he will be liable to forfeit his clerical status for acting in defiance of this great synod.

    3. This great synod absolutely forbids a bishop, presbyter, deacon or any of the clergy to keep a woman who has been brought in to live with him, with the exception of course of his mother or sister or aunt, or of any person who is above suspicion.

    4. It is by all means desirable that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops of the province. But if this is difficult because of some pressing necessity or the length of the journey involved, let at least three come together and perform the ordination, but only after the absent bishops have taken part in the vote and given their written consent. But in each province the right of confirming the proceedings belongs to the metropolitan bishop.

    5. Concerning those, whether of the clergy or the laity, who have been excommunicated, the sentence is to be respected by the bishops of each province according to the canon which forbids those expelled by some to be admitted by others. But let an inquiry be held to ascertain whether anyone has been expelled from the community because of pettiness or quarrelsomeness or any such ill nature on the part of the bishop. Accordingly, in order that there may be proper opportunity for inquiry into the matter, it is agreed that it would be well for synods to be held each year in each province twice a year, so that these inquiries may be conducted by all the bishops of the province assembled together, and in this way by general consent those who have offended against their own bishop may be recognised by all to be reasonably excommunicated, until all the bishops in common may decide to pronounce a more lenient sentence on these persons. The synods shall be held at the following times: one before Lent, so that, all pettiness being set aside, the gift offered to God may be unblemished; the second after the season of autumn.

    6. The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces the prerogatives of the churches are to be preserved. In general the following principle is evident: if anyone is made bishop without the consent of the metropolitan, this great synod determines that such a one shall not be a bishop. If however two or three by reason of personal rivalry dissent from the common vote of all, provided it is reasonable and in accordance with the church's canon, the vote of the majority shall prevail.

    7. Since there prevails a custom and ancient tradition to the effect that the bishop of Aelia is to be honoured, let him be granted everything consequent upon this honour, saving the dignity proper to the metropolitan.

    8. Concerning those who have given themselves the name of Cathars, and who from time to time come over publicly to the catholic and apostolic church, this holy and great synod decrees that they may remain among the clergy after receiving an imposition of hands. But before all this it is fitting that they give a written undertaking that they will accept and follow the decrees of the catholic church, namely that they will be in communion with those who have entered into a second marriage and with those who have lapsed in time of persecution and for whom a period [of penance] has been fixed and an occasion [for reconciliation] allotted, so as in all things to follow the decrees of the catholic and apostolic church. Accordingly, where all the ordained in villages or cities have been found to be men of this kind alone, those who are so found will remain in the clergy in the same rank; but when some come over in places where there is a bishop or presbyter belonging to the catholic church, it is evident that the bishop of the church will hold the bishop's dignity, and that the one given the title and name of bishop among the so-called Cathars will have the rank of presbyter, unless the bishop thinks fit to let him share in the honour of the title. But if this does not meet with his approval, the bishop will provide for him a place as chorepiscopus or presbyter, so as to make his ordinary clerical status evident and so prevent there being two bishops in the city.

    9. If any have been promoted presbyters without examination, and then upon investigation have confessed their sins, and if after their confession men have imposed hands upon such people, being moved to act against the canon, the canon does not admit these people, for the catholic church vindicates only what is above reproach.

    10. If any have been promoted to ordination through the ignorance of their promoters or even with their connivance, this fact does not prejudice the church's canon; for once discovered they are to be deposed.

    11. Concerning those who have transgressed without necessity or the confiscation of their property or without danger or anything of this nature, as happened under the tyranny of Licinius, this holy synod decrees that, though they do not deserve leniency, nevertheless they should be treated mercifully. Those therefore among the faithful who genuinely repent shall spend three years among the hearers, for seven years they shall be prostrators, and for two years they shall take part with the people in the prayers, though not in the offering.

    12. Those who have been called by grace, have given evidence of first fervour and have cast off their [military] belts, and afterwards have run back like dogs to their own vomit, so that some have even paid money and recovered their military status by bribes -- such persons shall spend ten years as prostrators after a period of three years as hearers. In every case, however, their disposition and the nature of their penitence should be examined. For those who through their fear and tears and perseverance and good works give evidence of their conversion by deeds and not by outward show, when they have completed their appointed term as hearers, may properly take part in the prayers, and the bishop is competent to decide even more favourably in their regard. But those who have taken the matter lightly, and have thought that the outward form of entering the church is all that is required for their conversion, must complete their term to the full.

    13. Concerning the departing, the ancient canon law is still to be maintained namely that those who are departing are not to be deprived of their last, most necessary viaticum. But if one whose life has been despaired of has been admitted to communion and has shared in the offering and is found to be numbered again among the living, he shall be among those who take part in prayer only [here a variant reading in Les canons des conciles oecumeniques adds "until the term fixed by this great ecumenical synod has been completed"]. But as a general rule, in the case of anyone whatsoever who is departing and seeks to share in the eucharist, the bishop upon examining the matter shall give him a share in the offering.

    14. Concerning catechumens who have lapsed, this holy and great synod decrees that, after they have spent three years as hearers only, they shall then be allowed to pray with the catechumens.

    15. On account of the great disturbance and the factions which are caused, it is decreed that the custom, if it is found to exist in some parts contrary to the canon, shall be totally suppressed, so that neither bishops nor presbyters nor deacons shall transfer from city to city. If after this decision of this holy and great synod anyone shall attempt such a thing, or shall lend himself to such a proceeding, the arrangement shall be totally annulled, and he shall be restored to the church of which he was ordained bishop or presbyter or deacon.

    16. Any presbyters or deacons or in general anyone enrolled in any rank of the clergy who depart from their church recklessly and without the fear of God before their eyes or in ignorance of the church's canon, ought not by any means to be received in another church, but all pressure must be applied to them to induce them to return to their own dioceses, or if they remain it is right that they should be excommunicated. But if anyone dares to steal away one who belongs to another and to ordain him in his church without the consent of the other's own bishop among whose clergy he was enrolled before he departed, the ordination is to be null.

    17. Since many enrolled [among the clergy] have been induced by greed and avarice to forget the sacred text, "who does not put out his money at interest", and to charge one per cent [a month] on loans, this holy and great synod judges that if any are found after this decision to receive interest by contract or to transact the business in any other way or to charge [a flat rate of] fifty per cent or in general to devise any other contrivance for the sake of dishonourable gain, they shall be deposed from the clergy and their names struck from the roll.

    18. It has come to the attention of this holy and great synod that in some places and cities deacons give communion to presbyters, although neither canon nor custom allows this, namely that those who have no authority to offer should give the body of Christ to those who do offer. Moreover it has become known that some of the deacons now receive the eucharist even before the bishops. All these practices must be suppressed. Deacons must remain within their own limits, knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and subordinate to the presbyters. Let them receive the eucharist according to their order after the presbyters from the hands of the bishop or the presbyter. Nor shall permission be given for the deacons to sit among the presbyters, for such an arrangement is contrary to the canon and to rank. If anyone refuses to comply even after these decrees, he is to be suspended from the diaconate.

    19. Concerning the former Paulinists who seek refuge in the catholic church, it is determined that they must be rebaptised unconditionally. Those who in the past have been enrolled among the clergy, if they appear to be blameless and irreproachable, are to be rebaptised and ordained by the bishop of the catholic church. But if on inquiry they are shown to be unsuitable, it is right that they should be deposed. Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity.

    20. Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one's prayers to the Lord standing.

    THE LETTER OF THE SYNOD IN NICAEA TO THE EGYPTIANS

    The bishops assembled at Nicaea, who constitute the great and holy synod, greet the church of the Alexandrians, by the grace of God holy and great, and the beloved brethren in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis.

    Since the grace of God and the most pious emperor Constantine have called us together from different provinces and cities to constitute the great and holy synod in Nicaea, it seemed absolutely necessary that the holy synod should send you a letter so that you may know what was proposed and discussed, and what was decided and enacted.

  3. First of all the affair of the impiety and lawlessness of Arius and his followers was discussed in the presence of the most pious emperor Constantine. It was unanimously agreed that anathemas should be pronounced against his impious opinion and his blasphemous terms and expressions which he has blasphemously applied to the Son of God,

    Against all this the holy synod pronounced anathemas, and did not allow this impious and abandoned opinion and these blasphemous words even to be heard.

    Of that man and the fate which befell him, you have doubtless heard or will hear, lest we should seem to trample upon one who has already received a fitting reward because of his own sin. Such indeed was the power of his impiety that Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais shared in the consequences, for they too suffered the same fate.

    But since, when the grace of God had freed Egypt from this evil and blasphemous opinion, and from the persons who had dared to create a schism and a separation in a people which up to now had lived in peace, there remained the question of the presumption of Meletius and the men whom he had ordained, we shall explain to you, beloved brethren, the synod's decisions on this subject too. The synod was moved to incline towards mildness in its treatment of Meletius for strictly speaking he deserved no mercy. It decreed that that he might remain in his own city without any authority to nominate or ordain, and that he was not to show himself for this purpose in the country or in another city, and that he was to retain the bare name of his office.

    It was further decreed that those whom he had ordained, when they had been validated by a more spiritual ordination, were to be admitted to communion on condition that they would retain their rank and exercise their ministry, but in every respect were to be second to all the clergy in each diocese and church who had been nominated under our most honoured brother and fellow minister Alexander; they were to have no authority to appoint candidates of their choice or to put forward names or to do anything at all without the consent of the bishop of the catholic church, namely the bishop of those who are under Alexander. But those who by the grace of God and by our prayers have not been detected in any schism, and are spotless in the catholic and apostolic church, are to have authority to appoint and to put forward the names of men of the clergy who are worthy, and in general to do everything according to the law and rule of the church.

    In the event of the death of any in the church, those who have recently been accepted are thereupon to succeed to the office of the deceased, provided that they appear worthy and are chosen by the people; the bishop of Alexandria is to take part in the vote and confirm the election. This privilege, which has been granted to all others, does not apply to the person of Meletius because of his inveterate seditiousness and his mercurial and rash disposition, lest any authority or responsibility should be given to one who is capable of returning to his seditious practices.

    These are the chief and most important decrees as far as concerns Egypt and the most holy church of the Alexandrians. Whatever other canons and decrees were enacted in the presence of our lord and most honoured fellow minister and brother Alexander, he will himself report them to you in greater detail when he comes, for he was himself a leader as well as a participant in the events.

    The following is not found in the latin text, but is found in the greek text :

    We also send you the good news of the settlement concerning the holy pasch, namely that in answer to your prayers this question also has been resolved. All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you. Rejoicing then in these successes and in the common peace and harmony and in the cutting off of all heresy, welcome our fellow minister, your bishop Alexander, with all the greater honour and love. He has made us happy by his presence, and despite his advanced age has undertaken such great labour in order that you too may enjoy peace.

    Pray for us all that our decisions may remain secure through almighty God and our lord Jesus Christ in the holy Spirit, to whom is the glory for ever and ever. Amen.


    Translation taken from Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, ed. Norman P. Tanner



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; councils; nicaea
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To: Salvation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement


41 posted on 05/19/2007 8:49:18 PM PDT by nowandlater
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To: nowandlater

The difference is that Fred’s church is a Christian church - holding to the orthodox position. The mormonism group is not.


42 posted on 05/19/2007 9:02:55 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (-Taken -)
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To: Salvation
Well, I know of no Christian who would doubt that Jesus established the imprimatur for His Church with Peter. The fundamental question is always of what character is that Church?
43 posted on 05/19/2007 9:10:56 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Salvation

**As a Catholic, I have always counted the Council of Jerusalem as the first council. Unfortunately, many Protestants have disagreed with me.**

I asked a priest once why Jerusalem was not counted as the first ecumenical council and he told me it was considered rather a local council.


44 posted on 05/19/2007 9:18:56 PM PDT by Macoraba
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To: NYer

I guess the point is:

I can’t think of an experiment that would reveal the nature of G-d. The Holy Fathers may assert something about the nature of G-d but still, that assertion would be based on revelation, facts, or reason, in some mix and combination. I have a hard time thinking of any facts that would shed light, and reason with no facts is not terribly useful. No account is provided in the Bible of any revelation on the subject.

So, did they just make it up, like the local homeowner’s association does?


45 posted on 05/19/2007 10:07:10 PM PDT by donmeaker (You may not be interested in War but War is interested in you.)
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To: donmeaker

No, the work of the Holy Spirit did not end with the death of the last Apostle.


46 posted on 05/19/2007 10:15:14 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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Apostle, as in the specific one who walked with Jesus.


47 posted on 05/19/2007 10:16:51 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: donmeaker; MHGinTN
The Holy Fathers may assert something about the nature of G-d but still, that assertion would be based on revelation, facts, or reason, in some mix and combination. I have a hard time thinking of any facts that would shed light, and reason with no facts is not terribly useful. No account is provided in the Bible of any revelation on the subject.

On the contrary .... the following passages from Scripture affirm the fact that Jesus did not leave us orphans.

In Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

In Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

In Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

And, in Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

48 posted on 05/20/2007 12:40:33 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“The difference is that Fred’s church is a Christian church - holding to the orthodox position. The mormonism group is not.”

AMPU, you speak the terms “Christian” and “Orthodox” as if they are synonyms. They are not, no matter how many times you repeat it in different threads.

m-w.com:
Christian: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
Orthdox: conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

I believe in and try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I am a Christian.

I also happen to be LDS.


49 posted on 05/20/2007 1:41:18 AM PDT by tantiboh
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To: MHGinTN

You wrote: “Why have sections been redacted ... blacked out?”

I think that’s a result of a common problem called “idiot didn’t know how to scan a book.” I don’t think its deliberate. I have seen worse cases of distortion - such as “half pages” where only the left or right side of the page shows up, etc.


50 posted on 05/20/2007 4:12:26 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: bremenboy
If the author wanted to start with the counsel of the church of Christ. instead of the catholic church he would have started with the counsel of Jerusalem.

You are correct!

51 posted on 05/20/2007 6:19:39 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.)
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To: livius
1John 4:2-3 -- 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
52 posted on 05/20/2007 6:26:22 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.)
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To: NYer; rogernz; victim soul; Rosamond; sfm; G S Patton; Gumdrop; trustandhope; MarkBsnr; pblax8; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

53 posted on 05/20/2007 6:26:59 AM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: MHGinTN
Well, I know of no Christian who would doubt that Jesus established the imprimatur for His Church with Peter.

Certainly the Lord used Peter's God-given affirmation of Jesus as "the Messiah, the Son of the living God" to instruct His disciples about the foundation of His Church.

You RCCers believe that the Lord was founding His Church on Peter, and this is the fundamental underpinning of papal authority (that's why this interpretation is so important to you).

Me, I believe that Jesus is referring to Peter's God-inspired statement of faith. [One only needs to read a couple of verses later to see Jesus referring to Peter as "Satan". It's hard to believe that Jesus is bi-polar.]

Your position that anyone who does not accept the RCC interpretation is not a Christian is certainly not uncommon in the RCC. In my youth, and long before God enlightened me, we were taught to pity the poor Protestants who were all going straight to hell. [Unlike us RCCers who, at least, had a pretty good shot at Purgatory]

Thank God for His Word!

54 posted on 05/20/2007 6:38:36 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.)
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To: donmeaker
So, did they just make it up, like the local homeowner’s association does?

Great analogy!

55 posted on 05/20/2007 6:40:30 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.)
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To: tantiboh
I believe in and try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I am a Christian.

I also happen to be LDS.

Christianity and LDS are mutually exclusive. What the LDS (and other cults) have done across time is to redefine terms in their own manners so that they can use the same "vocabulary" as Christians, but with PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT meanings.

I am sure the LDSers believe in jesus christ, but assuredly they DO NOT believe in Jesus Christ.

56 posted on 05/20/2007 6:45:14 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.)
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To: NYer; MHGinTN

Thank you for this very valid information NYer. And thanks MGHinTN for the heads up to this enlightening thread!


57 posted on 05/20/2007 6:46:01 AM PDT by colorcountry ("You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.")
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To: tantiboh

Muslims also believe in Jesus. We don’t call them Christian either.

The terms and their definitions must be the same for a discussion to make any sense. Otherwise we can have a seemingly meaningful discussion and agree to “paint the house red”, only for me to return and see that you razed the garage.

LDSers use many of the same terms as Christians, but define them very differently.


58 posted on 05/20/2007 6:59:10 AM PDT by pjr12345 (I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.)
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To: tantiboh

tant,
Truthfully, how can you claim to “follow the teachings
of Jesus” when you adhere to mormonism, which denies
the very identity of Jesus Christ as Eternal God?

The doctrine of mormonism is neither Christian nor
does it teach orthodox Christian doctrine.

Individuals may in fact be Christians - though trapped
in mormonism - but not because they follow it’s teachings
and beliefs. And I truly hope you are one of those. I wish
you no ill. In fact, after interacting with you over the
months, I want you to know I like you. When I post about
mormonism, I do not refer to you or any individual. I post
about the falsehoods of the cult of mormonism.

best,
ampu


59 posted on 05/20/2007 8:06:50 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (-Taken -)
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To: NYer
In Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

The chapter and verse says nothing about the Spirit speaking thru and leading the church...The chapter is about Apostles going about preaching to Jews Only...Preaching to Gentiles about a Gentile church is forbidden...

Your church AND my church includes Gentiles in their quest for members...Nothing in this chapter pertains to the infallibility of any church...

In Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

No, we call your church a liar, not Jesus...Your church has a record of churches thruout history and your church did it's best to kill off the competition...

your religion combined forces with Pagan Rome and then had the means necessary to perform those autrocities...Half of your popes (or more) were Pagan Roman Emperors...

You really think God would not only allow but actually recruit Pagans to lead and inspire his church with dogma and doctrine???

To imagine these Pagan Magisterical Emperors carried God's infallible xtra-biblical message and instructions is ludicrous...

And, in Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

The verse doesn't say that or imply that...Without the scripture, what in the world can a church teach??? Without scripture, a church is no more valid than a religion like Izlam...Without scripture, one religious nut is just as credible as any other...

60 posted on 05/20/2007 9:17:08 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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