Posted on 05/19/2007 3:06:54 PM PDT by NYer
The difference is that Fred’s church is a Christian church - holding to the orthodox position. The mormonism group is not.
**As a Catholic, I have always counted the Council of Jerusalem as the first council. Unfortunately, many Protestants have disagreed with me.**
I asked a priest once why Jerusalem was not counted as the first ecumenical council and he told me it was considered rather a local council.
I guess the point is:
I can’t think of an experiment that would reveal the nature of G-d. The Holy Fathers may assert something about the nature of G-d but still, that assertion would be based on revelation, facts, or reason, in some mix and combination. I have a hard time thinking of any facts that would shed light, and reason with no facts is not terribly useful. No account is provided in the Bible of any revelation on the subject.
So, did they just make it up, like the local homeowner’s association does?
No, the work of the Holy Spirit did not end with the death of the last Apostle.
Apostle, as in the specific one who walked with Jesus.
On the contrary .... the following passages from Scripture affirm the fact that Jesus did not leave us orphans.
In Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.
In Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
In Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
And, in Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.
“The difference is that Fred’s church is a Christian church - holding to the orthodox position. The mormonism group is not.”
AMPU, you speak the terms “Christian” and “Orthodox” as if they are synonyms. They are not, no matter how many times you repeat it in different threads.
m-w.com:
Christian: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
Orthdox: conforming to established doctrine especially in religion
I believe in and try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I am a Christian.
I also happen to be LDS.
You wrote: “Why have sections been redacted ... blacked out?”
I think that’s a result of a common problem called “idiot didn’t know how to scan a book.” I don’t think its deliberate. I have seen worse cases of distortion - such as “half pages” where only the left or right side of the page shows up, etc.
You are correct!
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Certainly the Lord used Peter's God-given affirmation of Jesus as "the Messiah, the Son of the living God" to instruct His disciples about the foundation of His Church.
You RCCers believe that the Lord was founding His Church on Peter, and this is the fundamental underpinning of papal authority (that's why this interpretation is so important to you).
Me, I believe that Jesus is referring to Peter's God-inspired statement of faith. [One only needs to read a couple of verses later to see Jesus referring to Peter as "Satan". It's hard to believe that Jesus is bi-polar.]
Your position that anyone who does not accept the RCC interpretation is not a Christian is certainly not uncommon in the RCC. In my youth, and long before God enlightened me, we were taught to pity the poor Protestants who were all going straight to hell. [Unlike us RCCers who, at least, had a pretty good shot at Purgatory]
Thank God for His Word!
Great analogy!
I also happen to be LDS.
Christianity and LDS are mutually exclusive. What the LDS (and other cults) have done across time is to redefine terms in their own manners so that they can use the same "vocabulary" as Christians, but with PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT meanings.
I am sure the LDSers believe in jesus christ, but assuredly they DO NOT believe in Jesus Christ.
Thank you for this very valid information NYer. And thanks MGHinTN for the heads up to this enlightening thread!
Muslims also believe in Jesus. We don’t call them Christian either.
The terms and their definitions must be the same for a discussion to make any sense. Otherwise we can have a seemingly meaningful discussion and agree to “paint the house red”, only for me to return and see that you razed the garage.
LDSers use many of the same terms as Christians, but define them very differently.
tant,
Truthfully, how can you claim to “follow the teachings
of Jesus” when you adhere to mormonism, which denies
the very identity of Jesus Christ as Eternal God?
The doctrine of mormonism is neither Christian nor
does it teach orthodox Christian doctrine.
Individuals may in fact be Christians - though trapped
in mormonism - but not because they follow it’s teachings
and beliefs. And I truly hope you are one of those. I wish
you no ill. In fact, after interacting with you over the
months, I want you to know I like you. When I post about
mormonism, I do not refer to you or any individual. I post
about the falsehoods of the cult of mormonism.
best,
ampu
The chapter and verse says nothing about the Spirit speaking thru and leading the church...The chapter is about Apostles going about preaching to Jews Only...Preaching to Gentiles about a Gentile church is forbidden...
Your church AND my church includes Gentiles in their quest for members...Nothing in this chapter pertains to the infallibility of any church...
In Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
No, we call your church a liar, not Jesus...Your church has a record of churches thruout history and your church did it's best to kill off the competition...
your religion combined forces with Pagan Rome and then had the means necessary to perform those autrocities...Half of your popes (or more) were Pagan Roman Emperors...
You really think God would not only allow but actually recruit Pagans to lead and inspire his church with dogma and doctrine???
To imagine these Pagan Magisterical Emperors carried God's infallible xtra-biblical message and instructions is ludicrous...
And, in Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.
The verse doesn't say that or imply that...Without the scripture, what in the world can a church teach??? Without scripture, a church is no more valid than a religion like Izlam...Without scripture, one religious nut is just as credible as any other...
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