Posted on 05/17/2007 10:08:04 AM PDT by Gamecock
Reading Francis Beckwith's interview with David Neff in Christianity Today, reminded me of how idyllic the Roman church can seem in the minds of those who embrace it (Click here: Q&A: Francis Beckwith | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction).
But then this news report appeared today which gives a much different picture of the supposed glories of Romanism (Click here: Pope to canonize first Brazilian saint - Yahoo! News).
All discussion of justification, the authority of Scripture, and reciting the Creed aside, the Pope is heading to Brazil to canonize Antonio de Sant'Anna Galvao, a Franciscan monk who is credited with 5000 miraculous healings. Over 1 million people are expected to be in attendance. The healings supposedly come as a result of swallowing rice paper pills prepared by the monk over two hundred years ago. According to the AP news report . . .
"The Vatican has officially certified the medical cases of two Brazilian women as divinely inspired miracles that justify the sainthood of Galvao. Both of these women spoke of their faith with The Associated Press, claiming that their children would not be alive today were it not for the tiny rice-paper pills that Friar Galvao handed out two centuries ago.
Although the friar died in 1822, the tradition is carried on by Brazilian nuns who toil in the Sao Paulo monastery where Galvao is buried, preparing thousands of the Tic Tac-sized pills distributed free each day to people seeking cures for all manner of ailments. Each one is inscribed with a prayer in Latin: `After birth, the Virgin remained intact. Mother of God, intercede on our behalf.'
Sandra Grossi de Almeida, 37, is one such believer. She had a uterine malformation that should have made it impossible for her to carry a child for more than four months. But in 1999, after taking the pills, she gave birth to Enzo, now 7. `I have faith," Grossi said, pointing to her son. I believe in God, and the proof is right here.'
Nearly 10 years before that, Daniela Cristina da Silva, then 4 years old, entered a coma and suffered a heart attack after liver and kidney complications from hepatitis A. `The doctors told me to pray because only a miracle could save her,' Daniela's mother Jacyra said recently. `My sister sneaked into the intensive care unit and forced my daughter to swallow Friar Galvao's pills.'"
So, if you "return home" to Rome, you get the whole ball of wax, including the beatification of saints who give out Tic-Tac size rice-paper pills which supposedly heal. And Pope Benedict XVI will be there to bless it all.
By the way, confessional Protestants affirm the historical evangelical doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone, and the full authority of Scripture. And yes, we even recite the Creed every Lord's Day and we use a biblical-text based liturgy which is quite similar to that described by Justin Martyr in the second century.
Too bad Dr. Beckwith didn't consider a confessional Protestant church before embracing Romanism. Now he's stuck with Antonio de Sant'Anna Galvao and his rice-paper healing pills.
You may not like it, but that is not my problem.
Actually, any non-RC is a “denomination unto himself.” So, we could hit a billion any time.
33,000+ denominations of Protestantism and counting
I was at the library one day researching something, and I saw the much talked about Protestant reference, the World Christian Encyclopedia by David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, and Todd M. Johnson (2001 edition). I thought I’d see for myself what it says. This is what I found....
David Barrett, et al, does indeed refer to “over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries.” (Table 1-5, vol 1, page 16). This refers to his unique definition of a “Christian denomination” but does not include small ones (congregations of a couple hundred or less), which would dramatically increase this number beyond all imagination. Barrett also states there are 242 total Roman Catholic denominations (year 2000 numbers). So I looked into what he believed these denominations were.
Barrett breaks down his encyclopedic reference by country. So I looked up how many Roman Catholic denominations are within the U.S. according to Barrett. Much to my surprise, Barrett shows ONLY ONE Roman Catholic denomination for the United States. [and continues to the end as shown...]
Mr. Armstrong, in fact, is arguing in his long post to Catholic Answers, that the number 36,000 is probably wrong and overstated, and gives or shows lower figures.
I am beginning to appreciate just how cursory a glance that posts are given. This might be construed as seeing (1) what you want and portraying a "strawman" as opposed to realistic debate, or (2) the "gotcha" phenomenon which engendered the "scorekeeping" response regarding "Irving's Law. Your "buds" might be keeping score and giving you an "atta boy, dude!" but what is this to God who is Revealed Truth?
In any event, readers see through this "gotcha" as evidenced by the confidential Freepmails we in the Catholic Caucus receive asking for more information as to how to join the Catholic Church. Apologetics is not badminton, I fear. The Holy Spirit directs most of the action at a plane far above our mortal efforts.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1835228/posts?page=378#365
Please compare this text to the Dave Armstrong text. They are the same and taken “in toto.”
and the crickets are still chirping, FRiend.
-A8
Apologetics is not badminton, I fear.
Not badminton, definitely. My guess would be Three-Card Monty.
>> Yet, you cannot get past the fact that Origen, as Irenaeus and other church fathers explicitly condemned the practice of praying to any other than God, a practice that Rome embraced, in spite of “tradition”. <<
But he didn’t SAY that. And he couldn’t have because the word “pray” didn’t even have the connotation it does today. Ever file a court plea? At least in Virginia, they are called “prayers” to the court. Ever hear of the word “prithee”? It’s a contraction of “pray thee.” Any favor requested is a prayer.
This is one case where begging the question cannot be avoided.
Did you know that the Catholic Church forbids praying to dead relatives, etc.? It’s precisely because, as Origin warns, we do not know whether they are in Heaven or not. Protestants argue about the Catholic use of the word, “Saint,” but the Catholic use comes not because holy living people aren’t saints, but because we do not know the state of their soul. Hence, Catholics pray only to saints which have been approved by the Church.
What Origin would have to condemn to be used the way you are using him is the practice of praying to dead people who were known to have died in grace, which would largely simply further establish that the practice was well-defined by his time.
>> Good job, that’s how the marxists work. <<
You’re the one who made the appeal to the authority, and then you attack me for demonizing people for associations! You chose the crackpot to cite. If you have someone more credible, you should have cited him first. Or quit mere appeals to authority and actually cite some reason to trust in their conclusions.
... I mean it’s not like Harnack is someone you would cite for any other position of his. He stands firmly against all of bible-believing Christianity, yet you cite him to me because he upholds your opposition to Catholicism. Well, if you’re going to use him as an authority, you have to be willing to reach the conclusions he reached, which is that anything anyone on this site considers Christianity is a conspiracy of 1st-century Jewish lies.
And by the way, I never said anything about Von Dillinger, Raymond Brown or Michael Winter!!!
And by the way, I never said anything about Von Dillinger, Raymond Brown or Michael Winter!!!
Risky-Riskerdo, click on my profile page for guidelines concerning the Religion Forum.
** that’s how the marxists work.**
Are you calling Catholics “marxists”?
That is absolutely slanderous in my book. Where are you getting such statements? From some propaganda somewhere? Inquiring minds want to know.
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ is not ‘represented’ by “the Roman Catholic religion.’
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ, sometimes referred to as the Catholic Church, is the entity that Jesus Christ left on earth in order to bring His Word to the ignorant. That has been and is being done. We, however, are faced with bringing His Word to the willfully ignorant, which is a very difficult task, as evidenced here in these forums.
The Truth, or your truth?
Precisely what "authority" did I appeal to.
Cite the exact post, verbatim.
You chose the crackpot to cite.
Roman Catholic brand most anyone who opposes Rome as "crackpots", and yes, that is demonization.
-A8
Then advise Roman Catholics not to cite Harnack, or others Roman Catholics cite, such as Schaff when they think, they are in their favor.
Well, if you’re going to use him as an authority, you have to be willing to reach the conclusions he reached, which is that anything anyone on this site considers Christianity is a conspiracy of 1st-century Jewish lies.
Another genetic fallacy of false association of facts and false premise. One can have the historical fact correct while reaching a wrong conclusion of what that fact means.
For instance, the Pharisees had the historical fact correct that Jesus had appeared on the scene from Nazareth, but reached the wrong conclusion that He could not be Messiah because the Scriptures prophecied that Messiah would come out of Bethlehem(place of birth), thus making same genetic fallacy of false association of facts.
But he didn’t SAY that.
Sure they did.
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