Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: kosta50; kawaii

“...but are pressing forward with more innovations.”

And an innovation, a particularly strange one at that, it is. One wonders what compels some Latins to press for not simply the toleration of this rather unpatristic notion, but indeed to dogmatize it. The position of the Most Holy Theotokos within The Church and hearts of the faithful is secure and has been for at least 1700 years, likely rather longer. The expression of that veneration and love in the Akathist Hymn seems to me quite sufficient, as it has been since +Romanos the Melodist penned it in the late 5th, early 6th century and in the kontakia, apolytikia, troparia and Divine Liturgies of The Church since the 4th century. The Mariology of The Church is clear. For the life of me I can see little purpose behind this activity unless it is to derail reunion with Orthodoxy.

“...I know from the writings of the holy Apostle Paul: the Holy Spirit declares that even the angels would be anathema if they should begin to preach another Gospel, introducing some new teaching.” +Maximos the Confessor


15 posted on 05/16/2007 7:50:45 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies ]


To: Kolokotronis
The position of the Most Holy Theotokos within The Church and hearts of the faithful is secure and has been for at least 1700 years, likely rather longer.

What is the Orthodox view of the role of Mary, and how does it differ from that of the Catholics and the Protestants?

16 posted on 05/16/2007 7:59:33 PM PDT by jude24 (Seen in Beijing: "Shangri-La is in you mind, but your Buffalo is not.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; LadyDoc

I believe BXVI has already rejected this. The concept is theologically fuzzy, not traditional, and should not go any further.


17 posted on 05/16/2007 8:08:57 PM PDT by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

To: Kolokotronis
I find myself agreeing with you on this. The concept of "coredemtrix" has always caused red flags to go up for me. I have great difficulty defending the idea, so I generally ignore it. The theology behind it is far from convincing.

There have always been bishops, clerics, and theologians out there with theological innovations. Generally, I have no problem with the Church allowing some latitude in personal piety. I certainly have no problem with devotion to the Blessed Mother. That said, I am glad the Pope hasn't attempted to dogmatically define this title for Mary as I think it goes way beyond Scripture, and beyond Tradition.

I'll continue to pray over it, though.
21 posted on 05/16/2007 8:37:03 PM PDT by Antoninus (P!ss off an environmentalist wacko . . . have more kids.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

To: Kolokotronis; kawaii
One wonders what compels some Latins to press for not simply the toleration of this rather unpatristic notion, but indeed to dogmatize it

Indeed. Well said, Kolo.

24 posted on 05/16/2007 8:58:54 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

To: Kolokotronis
Ave Maria!

...anathema if they should begin to preach another Gospel, introducing some new teaching.” +Maximos the Confessor

Yes, I agree with this! The question, though, is whether this is really a new doctrine? Again, we are simply saying that Mary participates in a unique way in the redemption. This is in a greater degree than any other creature but not equal to God. No blasphemy here. Nothing too radical. Maybe a development of old doctrine, but not "another Gospel."

And an innovation, a particularly strange one at that, it is.

and from and earlier post

Just as a matter of curiosity, what heresy or problem would a “Coredemptrix” dogma address? If none, what is the point of such a dogma?

Again, I am not the theologian but this is such an important question and I am always willing to boldly tread where angels stop in dread. So I will add my two cents : )

Certainly we seem to agree that Marian Doctrines have effectively addressed heresies in the past e.g. Theotokos, the God bearer as others have already commented. This effectively squashed the Nestorian heresy because if she bore a divine person then Jesus is one person and that person is divine, as opposed to the Nestorian concept that said he was two persons, a divine person somehow attached to a human person and only the human person was born by Mary.

Similarly, the Immaculate Conception effectively addressed both the Protestants who despaired of ever being able to receive actual grace and the Humanists who were rather complacent in this regard. The Immaculate Conception Dogma restored hope to the Protestants (and the Protestant leaning Jansensist in the Catholic Church) because it says human nature is not necessarily fallen, at least not in this one case, and so it is at least possible for a pure creature to actually be elevated by grace after the fall and be actually sanctified instead of merely being declared innocent, a la Luther. And in regard to the humanists it said, yes, it is possible to conquer fallen nature, but only one pure creature was conceived immaculately. The rest of us have to work at it!!

And finally, the dogma of the Coredemption addresses the issue of the importance of suffering, its redeeming value. That we are all called to be coredeemers with Christ and with Mary as the pure creature who is our exemplar. And just as she won the role by having her heart pierced (Prophecy of Simeon Luke 2) suffering in union with Christ at the crucifixion so we must participate by offering up our suffering in union with Christ's suffering.

What good does this do for the Church today? Well, what is the chief heresy in the world today? Hedonism with all its vices, contraception, abortion, euthenasia... The only sin in the modern mind is to suffer and suffering is the worst of all scandals. Thus the root of all of our moral problems in the modern world (and, no doubt, most of our physical problems) is this headlong rush away from suffering. If anyone can remedy this massive problem it is Our Lady the Coredeemer.

I must say though that all these reasonings are pretty much my own speculation, simply the fruit of meditation. I simply do not read enough to have any kind of certainty about them. I leave it up to others to correct me. But as you can see I love talking about them. : )

Ave Maria!!

35 posted on 05/17/2007 12:26:38 AM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson