Posted on 04/26/2007 6:03:35 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Ask Mark Briscoe, leader of the Howell ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the greatest misconception about the church, and he doesn't have to think very long or hard.
"Sometimes people would say that we're not Christians," he said. "We definitely are. We believe in Jesus Christ."
An Idaho native, Briscoe has been a Mormon his whole life, and said it is painful to have others think that his church is somehow outside the boundaries of Christianity. He said he was a high school student when he first heard the accusation.
"It was a little bit unsettling," he said. "From my earliest memories, we talked about Jesus Christ." In fact, members of the church believe that Jesus' teachings were changed and weakened soon after the apostles died, and that this "apostasy," or falling away from the truth, led to the withdrawal of the true church from the earth.
Mormons believe that was reversed when Joseph Smith, regarded as a prophet, was visited by God and Jesus in a vision in 1820. That's when Smith was chosen to restore the true church to the world, according to LDS doctrine. Smith translated the Book of Mormon, the sacred text of the Latter Day Saints, which is based on the Bible.
The Mormons' refer to this process as the "restoration."
The religion has received increased attention as Mitt Romney's prominence as a presidential candidate has risen. As happened with John F. Kennedy, the first Catholic president, some political observers have questioned whether Romney's Mormonism will hurt his electability, or his conduct as president if he's eventually elected.
Jan Shipps, an expert in the LDS church, a professor emeritus of history and religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, and a Methodist, said that concern is overhyped.
She said that, unlike Catholicism, in which a politician can be denied communion for votes in support of abortion rights, for example, the Mormon church does not directly influence its members who happen to be politicians.
A local bishop can exclude a church member from the temple, but that's about it, Shipps said.
"They don't have any official way to control their members, except to say that they can go into or cannot go into the temple," Shipps said.
"I just don't think it's a big deal, but a lot of people think it is because the president of the church is also understood to be a prophet," she said. "But the likelihood that the president of the church would have a revelation that the president has to do this or has to do that is less than zero."
Briscoe agreed with Shipps' assessment that any influence the church would have over members would be at the local level. But even that would not include anything political.
"We never say we're for one candidate or the other," he said. "Our view is that's not proper."
There is some evidence, however, that Romney is getting a lot of support from Mormons — 13 percent of the money he's raised so far, or $2.37 million, has come from the state of Utah, home of the church's headquarters.
Local ties, global reach Briscoe's title is "Bishop," analogous to a pastor, but he doesn't receive a salary from the church. That goes for all other leaders as well. Briscoe works as a powertrain engineer for Ford Motor Co. in Livonia.
"It makes for a very busy life, that's for sure," he said.
The LDS church on West Grand River Avenue in Howell has 400 members; holds services every Sunday; and has youth activities during the week.
One of the hallmarks of the church is the cooperation and support between members.
"A main focus is to provide service to one another," Briscoe said.
Members go in groups of two to visit each other on the weekends for "Home Teaching" sessions, in which they talk about spirituality and life in general, he said.
"Part of it is to see if people need help with anything," he said. "The goal is that nobody feels they don't have someone to call."
The visiting is separated by gender, with males visiting males and females visiting females.
Mormon services are not the raucous or musical affairs that other denominations celebrate.
"'Reverent' is the word we like to use," Briscoe said.
A typical service starts with the sacrament, a hymn and a prayer. Then, church members who Briscoe has spoken with beforehand give talks of about 10 minutes long on a given subject.
Non-Mormons, however, don't often get the chance to witness these services. The church has a reputation for secrecy, but Shipps said it's not just for the sake of exclusion.
"A better way to say it is what goes on in the temple is sacred and therefore private, rather than secret," she said. "All temples are closed to anyone except those who the bishop recommends."
Outreach also is an important part of the Mormon philosophy. Most men do two years of missionary work when they're around 19 years old, and unmarried women do 18 months. One of Briscoe's own sons is in Brazil right now as a missionary.
College age is an ideal time to go abroad as a missionary because it exposes one to the world, yet still gives a person time to start a family. And family, Briscoe said, is a foundational piece of the Mormon church.
"We do believe in families," he said. "We believe a man and a woman should get married and raise a family, so we encourage that."
Briscoe himself was a missionary in Spain: "I learned probably as much from that experience as I did from college."
Mormons also are aware of opportunities to tell friends and other social acquaintances about Mormonism, Briscoe said, and how to approach people is a subject of conversation in the church.
"As life goes on, you get into discussions about your beliefs," he said. "We feel like what we have is so important ... we really feel deeply that what we believe is the truth."
The church has been fairly successful in bringing more people in. There are about 6 million members of the LDS church in United States, and more than that abroad, Shipps said.
Not universally embraced Many of the church's practices have prompted criticism from other religions. Polygamy, the practice of husbands having more than one wife, may be the most enduring stereotype of Mormons. But it hasn't been practiced since 1890 by the church, and is strictly prohibited.
The LDS past practice of baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims after their death drew fierce opposition from Jewish leaders as well.
Shipps said it was done to give non-Mormons the choice in the afterlife of becoming Mormon. That's also why there's such an emphasis in the church on genealogy — so that all one's relatives can be identified and baptized, she said.
Also, black people were denied membership until 1978, when the president of the church at the time had a revelation that they should be included.
Now, Shipps said, the LDS church has made strong inroads into nonwhite areas such as Japan, South Korea and Africa.
"There may be as many people worshipping on Sunday in Spanish-speaking areas than English-speaking," she said.
Theologically, Mormonism is viewed suspiciously by some as well. The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, puts the LDS church in the category of "Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements."
Shipps said the thing that sets Mormonism apart — and ironically draws the ire of both Christians and Jews — is the belief that the church is re-gathering the twelve tribes of Israel.
"It's a very complex and interesting and powerful theology, but for those looking at it from the outside, it seems somewhat strange because it has, in addition to Christian claims, claims to be the restoration of Israel," Shipps said.
Another notable Mormon belief is that the church president is a prophet, and receives the word of God.
"We believe God does talk to man," Briscoe said. "He chooses one prophet at a time."
Regardless of the negativity and criticism they may run into, he said, most Mormons aren't swayed.
"When people say things, we're still confident and confident in what we know to be right," he said.
In Matthew 19:25-26 notice the word “with”. God saves us if we believe (a work) and if we follow Jesus Christ (a work).
Notice the further commentary about this event to Peter in the account of Mark:
Mark 10:28 ¶ Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Again, Jesus is saying if you sacrifice (more works) you will be rewarded in the lifetime to come.
Boy, it sure sounds like Mormon theology lines up the best. We believe in grace of Jesus after we exert some effort. We believe in doing it “with” Jesus.
“Even though Jewish leaders won a court case against the LDS church for these baptisms, and promised to not do it again, members are still baptizing Jews”
Court case? Wow never heard of that before, as usual sounds made up.
And the Jesus denied preaching to the Gentiles until later too.
Not to discredit the Bible in anyway, but I worship Jesus above Moses or Paul or Isaiah. So to me the words in the GOSPELS have deeper meaning to me. I guess it is O.K. for you to put down Jesus but I put him in the highest regards.
That is a very good question. I can see that both of you are all over this whole issue. In all of my evangelical efforts, I simply have no time for this particular cult. It just really bugs me.
Jesus gives me this advice in understanding the word. It looks like one has to do a “work” to understand the will of God.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
I sort of like Orson Scott Card’s approach in his essay Is Mitt Romney Serious?:
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2007-03-18-1.html
Let me save everybody a lot of time. If by “Christian” you mean “believes in the version of God and Christ taught in the Nicene Creed,” then absolutely not. Right from the start, the founding prophet of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, rejected that view of God as a fantasy.
Of course, by our definition of “Christian theology,” we’re the only Christians. That’s why we send out missionaries to preach to Baptists and Methodists right along with the heathens.
***
So let’s pretend that it matters. Theologically, Mormons are way outside the mainstream of Christianity.
***
We may have different opinions about the nature of God, but we still pray to the God of the New Testament and recognize Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world, and try to obey his commandments, like any other practical Christians.
18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Do you see here, Jesus is telling us that NONE can live the law. Jesus offers himself in sacrifice so that we may do good works through him and not by our own effort. BECAUSE
>>>>>
>>>>>
18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Try clicking on the link in my post#80. I provided documentation.
What is this post in reference to?
Forgot to ping you to my post #80, there is a link to the Jewish baptisms.
19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
“Do you see here, Jesus is telling us that NONE can live the law. Jesus offers himself in sacrifice so that we may do good works through him and not by our own effort. BECAUSE”
Nice commentary. Not the words of Jesus. Where does he say none can live the law? To the group he is addressing he says that they don’t follow the law of Moses. He is also saying that they are trying to kill him. If you follow your logic, then all mankind would attempt to kill Jesus? Woah, John, Peter, and all the apostles went out to kill him.
Provide documentation for your assertion. I did not cast aspersions on my savior Jesus Christ. Where did he tell YOU that I do not hold him in high regard?
You’d not be pleased if I questioned your worthiness for salvation publicly, would you?
Ok, your link doesn’t mention a court case though. Are you adding drama to this for effect?
Jesus himself acted in a exclusionary manner. Sorry, it is the facts.
Judging me? Wow. All I said is that I rely on Jesus from Gospels and I get accussed of losing my salvation. Go ahead and question my salvation worthiness if it makes you feel better. I will be like Stephen.
Well, I do not know what to say, except you seem to have encountered some strange characters. Whether they were strange because they were Mormons or in spite of it (or whether they were really Mormons at all), I am not prepared to say. However, I have never heard such things taught at church.
But what disturbed me the most was the gal I dated who gotten a divorce from a Mormon and had been driven out of the church. That was the first time I suspected how cloistered most Mormons are.
Once again, I have never heard of anyone being "driven out" of the Church because of a divorce. People can be excommunicated for serious offenses such as adultery or abuse; but divorce is not grounds for excommunication.
I suppose some Mormons may be considered "cloistered" in the sense that they avoid contact with the outside world, but most of us do not.
Look n&l, if the Pharisees couldn't keep the law, then why do you think you can? Or why could anyone else for that matter. And if you think you can add one single thing to the atonement by your own filthy self-glorifying acts, then you are in essence turning your back upon the crusifixion. You are exhibiting that you believe you can save yourself. But hey, good luck with that....and that becoming a 'god' thing.
(yeah, thinking you can be perfect in your obvedience and works enough that you can become a god is not in direct conflict to John 7:18...He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.)
Your people drove me out of the Church just last week. See it all here on FR.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1812842/posts
Start at about post #400 and read through to #1200 and you’ll get the feel for the interchange. Yep, last week after being browbeaten by the LDS, that I am not ‘truthful’ because I never resigned, I finally did it. I officially resigned. You are all such good and loving people, great neighbors etc, etc, etc....
Glad to be out!
YOU SAID I PUT JESUS DOWN. YOU ARE QUESTIONING MY SALVATION, AND YOU TRY TO SLINK AWAY IN SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT ADMITTING THAT YOU CAST ASPERSIONS ON MY FAITH.
Jesus is watching you.
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