Posted on 04/26/2007 6:03:35 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Ask Mark Briscoe, leader of the Howell ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the greatest misconception about the church, and he doesn't have to think very long or hard.
"Sometimes people would say that we're not Christians," he said. "We definitely are. We believe in Jesus Christ."
An Idaho native, Briscoe has been a Mormon his whole life, and said it is painful to have others think that his church is somehow outside the boundaries of Christianity. He said he was a high school student when he first heard the accusation.
"It was a little bit unsettling," he said. "From my earliest memories, we talked about Jesus Christ." In fact, members of the church believe that Jesus' teachings were changed and weakened soon after the apostles died, and that this "apostasy," or falling away from the truth, led to the withdrawal of the true church from the earth.
Mormons believe that was reversed when Joseph Smith, regarded as a prophet, was visited by God and Jesus in a vision in 1820. That's when Smith was chosen to restore the true church to the world, according to LDS doctrine. Smith translated the Book of Mormon, the sacred text of the Latter Day Saints, which is based on the Bible.
The Mormons' refer to this process as the "restoration."
The religion has received increased attention as Mitt Romney's prominence as a presidential candidate has risen. As happened with John F. Kennedy, the first Catholic president, some political observers have questioned whether Romney's Mormonism will hurt his electability, or his conduct as president if he's eventually elected.
Jan Shipps, an expert in the LDS church, a professor emeritus of history and religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, and a Methodist, said that concern is overhyped.
She said that, unlike Catholicism, in which a politician can be denied communion for votes in support of abortion rights, for example, the Mormon church does not directly influence its members who happen to be politicians.
A local bishop can exclude a church member from the temple, but that's about it, Shipps said.
"They don't have any official way to control their members, except to say that they can go into or cannot go into the temple," Shipps said.
"I just don't think it's a big deal, but a lot of people think it is because the president of the church is also understood to be a prophet," she said. "But the likelihood that the president of the church would have a revelation that the president has to do this or has to do that is less than zero."
Briscoe agreed with Shipps' assessment that any influence the church would have over members would be at the local level. But even that would not include anything political.
"We never say we're for one candidate or the other," he said. "Our view is that's not proper."
There is some evidence, however, that Romney is getting a lot of support from Mormons — 13 percent of the money he's raised so far, or $2.37 million, has come from the state of Utah, home of the church's headquarters.
Local ties, global reach Briscoe's title is "Bishop," analogous to a pastor, but he doesn't receive a salary from the church. That goes for all other leaders as well. Briscoe works as a powertrain engineer for Ford Motor Co. in Livonia.
"It makes for a very busy life, that's for sure," he said.
The LDS church on West Grand River Avenue in Howell has 400 members; holds services every Sunday; and has youth activities during the week.
One of the hallmarks of the church is the cooperation and support between members.
"A main focus is to provide service to one another," Briscoe said.
Members go in groups of two to visit each other on the weekends for "Home Teaching" sessions, in which they talk about spirituality and life in general, he said.
"Part of it is to see if people need help with anything," he said. "The goal is that nobody feels they don't have someone to call."
The visiting is separated by gender, with males visiting males and females visiting females.
Mormon services are not the raucous or musical affairs that other denominations celebrate.
"'Reverent' is the word we like to use," Briscoe said.
A typical service starts with the sacrament, a hymn and a prayer. Then, church members who Briscoe has spoken with beforehand give talks of about 10 minutes long on a given subject.
Non-Mormons, however, don't often get the chance to witness these services. The church has a reputation for secrecy, but Shipps said it's not just for the sake of exclusion.
"A better way to say it is what goes on in the temple is sacred and therefore private, rather than secret," she said. "All temples are closed to anyone except those who the bishop recommends."
Outreach also is an important part of the Mormon philosophy. Most men do two years of missionary work when they're around 19 years old, and unmarried women do 18 months. One of Briscoe's own sons is in Brazil right now as a missionary.
College age is an ideal time to go abroad as a missionary because it exposes one to the world, yet still gives a person time to start a family. And family, Briscoe said, is a foundational piece of the Mormon church.
"We do believe in families," he said. "We believe a man and a woman should get married and raise a family, so we encourage that."
Briscoe himself was a missionary in Spain: "I learned probably as much from that experience as I did from college."
Mormons also are aware of opportunities to tell friends and other social acquaintances about Mormonism, Briscoe said, and how to approach people is a subject of conversation in the church.
"As life goes on, you get into discussions about your beliefs," he said. "We feel like what we have is so important ... we really feel deeply that what we believe is the truth."
The church has been fairly successful in bringing more people in. There are about 6 million members of the LDS church in United States, and more than that abroad, Shipps said.
Not universally embraced Many of the church's practices have prompted criticism from other religions. Polygamy, the practice of husbands having more than one wife, may be the most enduring stereotype of Mormons. But it hasn't been practiced since 1890 by the church, and is strictly prohibited.
The LDS past practice of baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims after their death drew fierce opposition from Jewish leaders as well.
Shipps said it was done to give non-Mormons the choice in the afterlife of becoming Mormon. That's also why there's such an emphasis in the church on genealogy — so that all one's relatives can be identified and baptized, she said.
Also, black people were denied membership until 1978, when the president of the church at the time had a revelation that they should be included.
Now, Shipps said, the LDS church has made strong inroads into nonwhite areas such as Japan, South Korea and Africa.
"There may be as many people worshipping on Sunday in Spanish-speaking areas than English-speaking," she said.
Theologically, Mormonism is viewed suspiciously by some as well. The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, puts the LDS church in the category of "Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements."
Shipps said the thing that sets Mormonism apart — and ironically draws the ire of both Christians and Jews — is the belief that the church is re-gathering the twelve tribes of Israel.
"It's a very complex and interesting and powerful theology, but for those looking at it from the outside, it seems somewhat strange because it has, in addition to Christian claims, claims to be the restoration of Israel," Shipps said.
Another notable Mormon belief is that the church president is a prophet, and receives the word of God.
"We believe God does talk to man," Briscoe said. "He chooses one prophet at a time."
Regardless of the negativity and criticism they may run into, he said, most Mormons aren't swayed.
"When people say things, we're still confident and confident in what we know to be right," he said.
Thank you, I see that you are correct. The revised addition is almost identical.
My mistake.
The problem is that polytheism connotes the worship of many gods. Often these various gods represent objects or forces in nature, such as the Sun, the Moon, and so forth.
Perhaps the word you are looking for is tritheism, defined by my dictionary as "the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Gods." That more accurately describes our belief.
That said, I should point out that Mormons worship one God, God the Father, in the name of the Son (D&C 18:40; 20:29). So in that sense, we are monotheists.
Theologically, Mormons would have to come up with some doctrine more similar to the Trinity in order to be monotheists.
Even if we were to do as you suggest, it would not satisfy everyone's definition of monotheism. Muslims, who are strict monotheists, often call Trinitarian Christians "polytheists." To a certain extent, polytheism is in the eye of the beholder.
Amen. If one has placed their faith in the wrong version of Jesus, that faith and that false Jesus cannot save them. It only condemns them for rejecting the genuine Christ.
If you have ever attended a Mormon Sunday worship service, what they state when they serve communion is "I believe the Church is true, etc." Their unique beliefs about Joseph Smith, their relationship to God and their Church, is far more interesting than the fact that they "believe in Jesus Christ."
In John, Jesus tells His disciples that He would be leaving them but that they should not be troubled. "If I go," He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Thomas was rather puzzled over this asking how it was possible to know how to get where Christ was going. Jesus replied, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
Christians throughout the centuries have pointed to Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation. Too spend eternity in the presence of the Father, it is imperative to come to faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, preached by the Apostles and believed on by the historic Christian faith. It is also imperative to understand that, as a sinner, no one can work their way into His presence. Jesus compared salvation to passing through a narrow gate and declared that few were going to find themselves passing through it (Matthew 7:14).
In spite of Jesus' clear affirmation, Marion Romney, a former member of the LDS First Presidency, perverted the words of our Lord when he said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life"---Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119.
Jesus warned over and over, that there would be many false teachers and false prophets who would come preaching another jesus and another way of salvation than the salvation He and the Apostles preached, calling them "thieves and robbers".
Any individual, group, or church claiming that salvation can be found only within their little circle must be viewed with suspicion. Mormonism certainly qualifies.
While publicly, especially since the LDS church a few decades ago began it's PR campaign to improve it's public image to appear to be just another "mainline Christian denomination", the LDS church does not publicly proclaim it is the only way to salvation, it's leaders do in their writings, conferences, etc, as do LDS members when not in the public eye.
For instance, note the words of Ezra Taft Benson, the 13th LDS President;
"This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..."---Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165.
Also note the teaching of Brigham Young;
"From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent"----Journal of Discourses 7:238.
Both of those are completely contradictory to the proclamations of Christ that He is the way, the truth and the life. The LDS has set itself up as the way, through Joseph Smith.
Jesus and the Apostles warned us time after time of deceivers who would pervert the Gospel and would come in the name of Jesus, while being subversive to the faith.
No needlenose only in your mind!:)
Wrong, it's just as LDS doctrine states it.
“United in love and purpose” does not make them mono. Any three people could be united in love and purpose, so this does not distinguish it from poly.
Theologically, Mormons would have to come up with some doctrine more similar to the Trinity in order to be monotheists.
IMHO, of course.
Rational thinking is not allowed.(wink)
I am still trying to fine the Trinity Jesus in the OT!
I guess according to your Logic it is Duo in the OT being the fact you had Elohim and Jehovah.
****
I looked up the word Trinity =
Threefold; triple.
Of or relating to an astrologically favorable positioning of two celestial bodies 120° apart.
In astrology, situated 120° apart.
n.
A group of three.
In astrology, the aspect of two planets when 120° apart.
Trine Christianity. See Trinity (sense 2).
****
Thanks very much for your reply.
If I understand correctly, you are saying Mormonism does have three Gods, somewhat described as tritheism - three distinct Gods - however only one is worshiped, God the Father.
So, again if I understand you, there is a distinction drawn between having a God and worshiping a God.
I’m still not sure why tri (three) is not poly (more than one or many). The emphasis in Judeo-Christianity is strongly on monotheism, “Our God is One”, so clearly three would be verbotten.
This of course is why in orthodox Christian theology the Trinity is so central and important.
It is true that non-Christians, Muslims as you note, but also Jews, see the Trinity as insufficient monotheism; however, I would argue that Mormonism is at least one step further away. If one posits that the Trinity is insufficient monotheism, then Mormonism would have to be even more so.
I hope I’ve not misunderstood you and thanks again for your well-communicated and courteous reply.
Please explain to me D-fendr there is
1- Heavenly Father who begat his Only begotten Son
2- Jesus Christ has a resurrected body of Flesh & Bone
3- Holy Spirit who is a Ghost no body of Flesh & Bone
So you have the Heavenly Father, and His Only begotten Son, of Flesh & Bone, a Holy Spirit who is a ghost!
1- God the Father
2- Jesus who has a resurrected body
3- Holy Spirit who is a ghost
You have some here with Celestial bodies, and One that is a ghost
In the West, being more academic and rationalistic, the mystery has been more defined in terms; in the Eastern Orthodox much less so - in fact it is an area of some contention between RC and EO churches.
I could point you to the Catechism on this, or the Nicene Creed (which is the most basic formulation and requirement for belief). However, if you wish a longer more complete discussion, St. Athanasius's "On the Incarnation" is considered the best source by most:
Thanks for your reply..
I think this is a different definition/description than in Mormonism.
Celestial body means resurrected body of Flesh and Bone!
Are you saying Jesus does NOT have a resurrected body?
The definition of Trinity came after the preisthood of the Lord was removed off the earth!
It is a was arrived at the concencus of men!
There is the word Godhead in the scriptures but NO Trinity!
“I just wish there wasn’t so much bigotry against the Church of Fast Coyote. You see, I have my own planet (”it’s called “Earth”) and I am it’s God!
Thank God (that’s me) that no one is allowed to object to the religious beliefs of another person based on logical grounds, otherwise the Church of Fast Coyote would be in trouble. I have decided to run for president, please all vote for me (God) and don’t bring my religion into it.”
So, who does the Church of FastCoyote worship? I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships Jesus Christ. Let’s accept, for a moment, that the LDS Church is just something that somebody made up. Does that make it any different than the rest of Protestantism, if it worships the same Lord?
Your argument is based on the flawed premise that our worship of Jesus Christ is in any way comparable to your proposed worship of FastCoyote. We DIDN’T just make Him up.
Of course there are many terms in theology that are not in scripture; that’s somewhat the point of theology or exegesis in general.
This applies to all religions’ theology.
As far as a scriptural basis for the Trinity, there are many. A couple of quick ones:
Matthew 3:13-17
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And the Great Commission to evangelize is clear in naming the Three Persons:
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
thanks for your reply..
Jesus is the Word Incarnate, the Word become flesh. God the Father, the Holy Spirit, no.
So, I was saying the term “Celestial Bodies” for the Triune God, therefore, would be inaccurate.
thanks for your reply.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your comment. Could you please explain what you are trying to say?
You still have NOT answered my question from Post #192-
Are you saying Jesus does NOT have a resurrected body?
So, I was saying the term “Celestial Bodies” for the Triune God, therefore, would be inaccurate.
The Holy Ghost doesn't have a body!
Isn’t the argument that mormon’s consider themselves and want others to consider them as a christian?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.