WHAT IS THE NATURE OF CHRISTIAN LOVE? --It's full depth and breadth

Quix | 23 APR 2007 | Quix

[Quix]

WHAT IS THE NATURE
OF CHRISTIAN LOVE?

--IT'S DEPTH, BREADTH, DIMENSIONS--

Have prayed since Jr High to be able to love like Jesus. That's a pretty hazardous prayer. The training for answers to that prayer is a lot like the training for wisdom, humility and patience. Lots of long dark nights of the soul; refiner's fires; being ground to powder, blown to the 4 winds--recollected--dipped in vinegar and ran through the manure spreader backwards . . . can all be SOP--common events.

Here are some questions to get us started prayerfully considering these principles and truths:

1. What is the nature of God's Love?
2. Is there any difference in Christ's Love?
. . .
3. How do we reconcile, manage living out God's model of Fierce Love AND Fierce Severity?
. . .
Romans 11:22 (The Message) The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
. . .
21-22If God didn't think twice about taking pruning shears to the natural branches, why would he hesitate over you? He wouldn't give it a second thought. Make sure you stay alert to these qualities of gentle kindness and ruthless severity that exist side by side in God—ruthless with the deadwood, gentle with the grafted shoot. But don't presume on this gentleness. The moment you become deadwood, you're out of there.
. . .
4. Is Christian Love 99% warm fuzzy and 1% severe or what?
5. How do we discern when to share the warm fuzzy aspects of Love and when the ruthless severity?
. . .
6. How do we keep an accurate, discerning check on our motives as well as our actions--doing what we can to insure that they conform to God's Christian Love?
7. How do we Love whole-heartedly as unto The Lord while still being human?
. . .
8. How responsible are we for the results of our efforts to Love?
9. How long do we wait to judge whether we were truly Loving, or not?
. . .
10. How do we deal with perceptions of receivers and others that we haven't been loving when our spirit indicates and God indicates that we have?
. . .
11. Is the Severity of God less loving than God's warm fuzzies?
12. How can we minimize errors in Loving?

Let us be iron sharpening iron to one another.

[Running On Empty]

This is the kind of reasoned approach that I look for in pepole who post here. I thank you for it.

I am one who may make “drive-by” posts—which have been alluded to on the forum. That’s because my time is very limited, and if I have something I want to reply to, I have to keep it short and to the point. That puts me in the category of those who read much more than they respond. For this reason, if I find that posters don’t have in mind some of the things you have pointed out in this excellent post, I will be encouraged more to turn away than to participate and to be repelled by an ungracious post than to gain from it.

Thanks again.

[Quix]

LOL about wintergreen.

You are welcome to be against anything within or about me which is less than God’s highest for The Kingdom and/or for me in that situation.

Thanks tons.

[Quix]

I’ll record that as not in favor of such.

Thanks.

[Running On Empty]

My vote is “counterproductive, more destructive than fruitful”.

However, in the end, Quix, it isn’t about you.

It’s really all about any of us, if we profess to be “children of the light”, to be moved to cast light and not darkness.

This won’t really go anywhere if it’s all about Quix. The focus will be in the wrong place.

We all need to remember the words of St. John the Beloved: “I must decrease, He must increase.”

In this counsel, we find a safe haven. We’ll be more inclined to want to increase His love in the world and even more importantly, be willing to step aside and let God do his work, in silence and in love, in the hearts of us who say we belong to Him.

[Quix]

I understand that.

Agree with that.

However, I have only/primary responsibility for me.

And, I’ve often experienced that living my life naked and flawed in front of God and everyone can at least at times prove to be a model of what not to do.

If that’s the most I can do to help someone, then I’m quite willing to be that grist for their mill.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Quix, I think you need to report the obscenity-laden FReepmail you got this morning to the Religion Moderator.

It was dangerous and threatening and should not be tolerated on a public forum.

You seem to be bearing the brunt of that abuse yourself when it should rightly fall on the shoulders of the one who made it.

Your posts all comply with the forum's rules -- discuss the topic and not the poster. But some people have a hard time with even that and they take EVERYTHING personally.

[Between the Lines]

I believe the majority of us have to squeeze our FR time in between our work, family, church and other obligations.

I am on call 24/7 with my job. Whenever the phone rings, I am on the clock. Quite often I even have to get out of my nice comfortable chair in front of my computer and go do real work outside my home. : ) Sometimes I only work eight hours a week and sometimes I don't get eight hours rest.

I am sure there are many who wonder why I just disappear in the middle of a conversation here not to return for hours or even days. And I am certain that when it happens they think they have won the argument. : )

I have been called a hit and run poster many times. Even more so when I am the one who posted the thread then disappears.

[Quix]

No.

I greatly appreciate your supportiveness.

And, there’s certainly truth in what you say.

However, I believe and feel this is much more a time to cover over a transgression. It was a small thing to me. I only shared it as an indication of how serious things had gotten and how grieved I’d become. I’ve said enough about such.

Yes, there is truth in what you assert. And I thank you for that.

And, I still have questions and bewilderment before God.

Nevertheless, very discerning and spiritual folks are challenging me in Biblical ways to take another tack and stance hereon. I believe that Love and Holy Spirit unity would have me bow to that regardless.

However, I will be asking God to somehow double—to replace the lost impact with HIS IMPACT AT LEAST DOUBLE that which will be lost.

This is the only way I have peace about navigating this current multidimensional mine field and proving ground.

But I shall forever cherish your supportiveness and kindly perspective.

Thanks enormously.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion." -- Proverbs 28:1

[Gamecock]

a. Love is clearly commanded. That makes it law.

b. Many people approach love as somehow being an improvement on the OT law. It is not. I would say love is the commandments cranked up to the nth degree. Tell me not to steal my neighbors lawnmower, that I can do. Tell me to love the bum that I pass on the street corner and it becomes much harder. Wesley tried to dilute love down to a feeling in the heart. I don't think so, it is action.

c. Law serves three purposes:
-to provide moral order in the world. The law is written on peoples hearts and that is why in general we live in a society that doesn't run around pillaging, pillaging and burning. There are of course breakdowns, and that is where the courts come in, which were also ordained by God. Of course they are made up of sinners, so that is not the perfect solution.
-even with the law written on our hearts we rebel. Abortion, adultery, lying, stealing. The law is there to break the elect and show us that we are in the worst possible condition imaginable without the Gospel.
-the law is a schoolmaster for the Christian. This is how we should live, not to save ourselves but as a loving response to God who saved us from the curse of the law. In response to the command to love others, we should take a deep interest in, and take action on, what those around us are going through.

Love includes telling people the truth about sin (which is essentially flipping God off) the consequences of such, and the great rescue plan that was put in place from the beginning and finished one afternoon about 2,000 years ago.

Do we love our neighbors enough to do that???

[John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?]

How can one reconcile the fact that God’s love has been shead abroad in our hearts yet one does not love like God?

[Quix]

Your words are precious to me as is this Scripture you posted and all you said in your FREEPMAILS.

Alas, my spirit and I believe His Spirit within me is requiring me to take a different path. It is somewhat mystifying to me—in spite of what seems so clear to so many others.

God has persistently led me through seemingly rarely trodden paths—and not uncommonly where there was no path—just light for the next step. I’ve often felt like a raving loon crying in the wilderness. Yet, somehow, He has brought even my worst to good as I’ve surrendered it repeatedly and daily, to him.

In a way, this is a bit of a new adventure. It sort of feels like I’ve been robbed of a major tool in my pack. And, while I have great and intense affection for, and allegiance to the fruit of The Spirit . . . I know that Holy Spirit also has some very interesting and atypical yet still Biblical tools in His pack that can often or even tyypically be mystifying and incongruous. Things are often not linear.

Nevertheless, tiki is right, shower insights have an uncommonly high hit rate. And, I’m convinced that this is the path I must currently trod.

However, I’ve never known The Lord to take something significant away without giving something better in return. It should be interesting to watch for that and see it unfold.

Though my commitment is serious & firm about such on the religion forum, I don’t really expect that such a change in writing style will be 100% across the board in all areas of my life forever. I could be wrong. But it’s just a hunch.

I am somewhat puzzled and grieved . . . commonly considered “loving” words and styles which are gentle and winsome seem to be chronically and easily forgotten, normally. But that will have to be God’s concern and await His solution.

In any case, Dr. E, YOU ARE an abiding treasure in my life regardless of our theological differences. I shall eagerly await that day on the other side of Jordan when such differences are wiped away forever.

And, between now and then, I shall always treasure your zeal that I resonate so much with—as well as your prayers and friendship. Yes, it feels somewhat like a capitulation to evil. And, I, too, am sad about that. But I believe strongly that God is working out something still mysterious in all of this. And I shall have to trust Him with that and proceed forward a cautious step at a time.

It has been my experience and observation in the other situations similar to this in my life—that those who think they have won the battle on the other side and from other perspectives are also in for some surprises from The Lord. We shall see. I do know that He wastes nothing, in the final analsysis. Everything is always grist for the mill in everyone’s lives.

Why am I so often the ‘point person’ taking it in the chin, the groin and elsewhere? Why am I so persistently ‘God’s fool’ doing the mystifying incongruous thing and suffering accordingly? Why am I so experienced at being tasked with repeatedly marrying a prostitute and running around with egg and worse on my face to guffaws to the max?

Evidently because I was created for such purposes and for such a time as this. At least that’s the way HIS SCRIPT has played out so very often in my life and it’s been very clearly not as much my doing as some would suppose.

BTW, I should clarify for some who might assume that I’m committing to saying absolutely nothing that they would take the least as offensive. I am not that much of a miracle worker. I am committing, if the voting continues as it seems to be, to avoiding the overtly fierce, dramatic, bitine satire, mocking, ridicule. I’m not making promises beyond that about my writing style etc.

I would caution you, Dear Heart Dr E . . . all of us have plenty of darkness—sin nature—loose in and around us such that any of us could break out in dastardly expressions should God pull His Grace back from us just a little. None of us has any reason to feel superior. It is likely that some of us see many theological things better than others. But also that others see some theological things better than we do. Contrition and humility are wise for all of us in all circumstances.

I do grieve and mourn a bit, a part of me that is seemingly being crucified, buried, extinguished—at least hereon. But I have to trust God to work out His purposes and His redemptiveness in that, however improbable it may seem at present.

I shall forever remember your kind and passionate words to me in this battle. And while I consider the battle really not against flesh and blood but against the deceiver . . . I recognize that each of us can play myriads of roles in such battles. And it’s particularly comforting when so many seem so inredulous that I could exist at all—much less with such sensibilities, patterns and priorities—it has been and will forever remain most comforting that once upon a time . . . a Precious Dr E understood me above average.

I’d better hush before my keyboard gets soaked.

[Cvengr]

IMHO, it has nothing to do with writing style nor percentages thereof.

It is much more important to remain in fellowship with God, through faith in Christ, thereby placing us in the right place, at the right time, while we walk by faith, fulfilling His plan for us and others.

As we write, we may remain in faith and express ourselves in many different fashions as per His faith circulating in our hearts.

Depending on the situation, the writing style might any number of composite expressions, provided we remain in fellwship with Him as we think, compose, and type our posts.

[Quix]

You are most welcome to remove the long commentary on the article ref’d below, which you see as starting the verbal violence.

at post #157

on

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1819082/posts?q=1&;page=1

I do wish to note that it is my conviction that the verbal violence was there against my perspective and person all along. And that that post ‘merely’ pulled the cover back a bit—exposing it more. But that is a moot issue now and I’m willing to lay it aside.

Bless you for your tireless efforts to facilitate our being conformed to the image of His Son.

[Quix]

IOW, the only possible reaction to being slapped, is to turn the other cheek. The only possible way to deliver a painful truth is with tenderness.

= = =

I wish that had been the totality of my experience on such. I wish The Lord had not seen fit to include other . . . experiences. I wish I had not seen additional Biblical truths which seem to complicate the picture.

Nevertheless, that is a much easier tack to take in a list of respects. And, it’s certainly more attractive and less troublesome to far more people.

Fruitfulness will have to be The Lord’s concern.

Thankfully, the fruit of His Spirit tend to be fruitful.

[Quix]

I shall have to wait on Him for a different kind of boldness.

I don’t for a minute believe He wants me to become a wimp. He very sternly led me away from my wimpy first 20+years.

[Quix]

Much wisdom in your words, Gamecock.

And I’m DEEPLY humbled that you’d bother and so thoughtfullly.

GC: Do we love our neighbors enough to do that???

Yes, I do. I’m just convinced in my spirit that the mode and manner will have to change, for me, on this religion forum. That’s rather unnerving and disconcerting. I feel a bit like a fish out of water and with a limb or two bitten off by a shark. But I think that’s just my humanness flailing about inwardly.

That mode of written and sometimes verbal expression has been a primary tool in my kit since at least 1964 . . . perhaps as early as 1962. I don’t know what it will be like in a major arena in my life without it. But evidently, it is time to see.

I do hope you and others will pray with me that God replaces it with something even much more powerful and effective. I would love it if the new tool would also be more universally attractive and delightful to all who it touches. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out otherwise. God usually has surprises for all concerned.

I any case, I shall long remember your kind and wise post. I shall assume, pretend that your vote would sort of go in a different direction than the current trend. LOL.

Thanks for being kind enough to reply. Blessings in your walk.

Hey, miracles occur. It wasn’t that long ago when our hands were on each other’s throats.

[Quix]

I don’t know that I can explain my life experience any better.

I have known God’s love to me in a ruthless fierceness that makes that demonstrated by my most intense satire to be a pale, wimpy 2nd rate such by comparison.

And, I have known God’s love to me through others in a similar ruthless fierceness and severity as well.

And, I have known God’s love through me to others in a similar ruthless fierceness and severity which eventually brought much fruit.

As the Rom 11 verse indicates . . . God is both kindly gentle and loving and fiercely severe. And somehow—both are His Love because HE IS LOVE.

I’ll record your vote as against the fierceness.

[Quix]

How can one reconcile the fact that God’s love has been shead abroad in our hearts yet one does not love like God?

If you are asking a psychological or spiritual question . . .

I don't know that there's a lot to reconcile.

We are flawed creatures who see through a glass darkly; the good we would do, we don't; the bad we would avoid, we do. It is our seemingly more abiding state this side of eternity.

IF we are willing, IF WE COOPERATE and IF we ask God, HE WILL cause us to be so much more increasingly conformed to the image of His Son that we do, in fact, begin to love more and more like Him--sometimes in spite of ourselves.

But I have learned, that loving like Jesus is not a unidimensional thing. It is not a flatlander's phenomenon in a multidimensional universe. On the contrary, IT IS MORE MULTIDIMENSIONAL than the universe. And some of those dimensions can be very paradoxical, indeed.

But I don't pretend that my strange life is normative for anyone else. But neither can I allow other folks' 'normative Christian experience' to squeeze my Christian walk into their little box or even their big box. Each of us was created differently for different roles. And some of us were created more UNequal than others.

Even praying earnestly since Jr High and cooperating all those years more or less as well as I knew how . . . learning to Love like God is not an overnight operation, overhaul, learning. And the SEVERITY of the training program is MORE SEVERE than any other Godly training program I've ever heard of.

[Quix]

I believe I agree wholesale with that.

And, at some point, one would have to obey God more than man regardless.

But here and now, on this forum, I humanly needed a clearer sense of the Christian Consensus in order to feel comfortable enough with laying aside something I’ve seen God use powerfully for several decades.

Remaining in faith in The Lord has not been an issue for me in writing the fierce satire etc. I suppose a case could be made that I was deluded or had a seared conscience or some such but that was not my subjective best sense or awareness. But I have often felt very much abiding in faith and in Him when writing such.

But now, it feels very strongly that He is asking me to put the spiritual comfort and spiritual communion of this group of diverse yea-hoos above even the tool He has used so powerfully so often in the past.

And, given my passion for brotherly loving unity, I’m very willing to do so as . . . disconcerting and mystifying as it may be to other parts of me.

I don’t know if I’m making any sense to you and you may disagree 100%. But it’s probably the best reply I can make at present. And, I would be honored by whatever reply you care to make.