Posted on 04/20/2007 9:21:58 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
It is the period of Holocaust Remembrance Day or Yom HaShoah—the Day of the Holocaust. In Israel, traffic comes to a halt for two minutes of respectful silence. In America, the day is observed by many Jewish communities as the dead are mourned. But for some, the Holocaust challenges faith.
Anyone who believes in the God of Abraham, has only two choices when contemplating the Holocaust: (1) God was powerless to stop evil men from perpetrating the Holocaust and therefore allowed this unspeakable calamity to occur; or (2) He made it happen.
Nobody with faith can adopt the first explanation. It violates every principle of an all-powerful God. Though it presents the fundamental question of how so many innocent people could be made to endure such tragic suffering, we are left with alternative number two. As hard as it is to comprehend, God must have made the Holocaust happen.
(Excerpt) Read more at towardtradition.org ...
Ping for your interest.
Ping.
Ping (compare to Rabbi ‘Eliyyahu’s comments).
High volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel, WOT
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High volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel, WOT
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There is a third. God had the power to stop it, but allowed it to happen.
God gave us free will. We have to live with the consequences.
Certainly can’t disagree with that. Most of the things Yoffe comments on are political in nature and shouldn’t be commented on at all in his capacity.
Rabbi 'Eliyyahu (`ad me'ah ve`esrim shanah) is far from the only Orthodox Jew to make this claim about the connection of Reform's German origins and Churban 'Europa'. Many, many Orthodox rabbis ('Ashkenazim as well as Sefaradim) have made the same point…I agree with Alouette that Reform doesn't practice what it preaches in the brotherhood department….How do you know it didn't? Do you think "things just happen," that there isn't a reason for everything?...Rabbi Yosef wasn't the only one to make that connection either. Don Feder mentioned a connection found in the Torah codes…The Orthodox Jews keep the Torah as given to Moses. Reform Jews not only don't do this, they promote deviancy and sin as the essence of Jewishness (G-d forbid!) and cause the name of G-d to be desecrated among non-Jews. This is an extremely serious sin. May all Jews be led back to the Torah speedily in our days.
Rabbi’s make all kinds of claims.
The burden of proof lies on the one making the statement.
Without proof, Gaza caused Katrina is simply humorous.
Neutra Karta’s contension that Jews shouldn’t live in Israel isn’t humorous, it’s harmful. It plays into the hands of antisemites worldwide.
I’d put Rabbi Eliyyahu’s in that category as well. Neonazis and Islamists everywhere tout the fact that if the Holocaust happened, the Jews brought in on themselves. Now there’s one authority they can rely on.
The Germany/observant issue is problematical as well.
While Reform Judaism was a German invention, by the 1930s the nexus was in the US.
European Jewry, which along with Israel was they heart of observant Judaism, was virtually wiped out, American Jewry unscathed.
If this was an act of Divine intervention in reaction to the Reform movement, it appears that on a relative basis, to be a rare occurrence where the Divine punished the observant and the less observant and secular were spared.
I’m not convinced, any more than I’ve convinced Jews shouldn’t return to Israel.
Prediction of Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, decades before the Holocaust.
Perceptive thouh it may have been, unless you’re suggesting that’s an actual act of prophecy, it’s irrelevant to Divine intent. Thoroughly secular Jews were saying the same thing, that’s how we got Zionism. Theodor Herzl wasn't a prophet, just politically astute.
No one can be blamed for the Holocaust but the people who did it...But there is a kernel of truth in this. I have not read the offending comments, but it is true that some prominent reformed Jews were in the forefront of leftist movements during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, including Communism and its predecessors. They were active in the 1848 revolution, they were active in the 1917 revolution, they were responsible for the bloody Communist coup in Hungary in the 1930s, and they were among the Russian invaders who slaughtered assorted Poles and others during the Second World War…Middle Europe was a battleground between Nazis and Communists, and a lot of people were caught in the middle.
Communism is an anti-religious movement, as was national socialism. Personally I find the religion of participants irrelevant, since religious ideology plays no role in either movement, I’d view the pagan Deutche Cristi, a political movement, since religious concepts motivates them not at all.
I know Jewish Communists is a popular phrase, even here on FR, but for consistency using it requires you accept Christian Communists and Christian Nazis as valid descriptions as well.
God did not make us plants. We have the choice. Unfortunately, it's this knowledge that seems bereft.
Man has free will. Yet HaShem's Divine Providence governs all things and everything is encoded within the Torah. Don't worry about it, don't try to rationalize it. Accept it.
That nails it! ............. FRegards
I have to disagree here. The key to man's relationship with God is, IMO, that we were created in His image. Not a physical image (obviously), but spiritual image.
As such, we have free will. As such, we must be allowed to grow up and exercise our free will. Thus, we see the Bible -- and the unfolding of human history -- as starting with God intensly involved in and affecting man's affairs, gradually, releasing his control, as we grow up. Still watching, perhaps even giving an occasional shove here and there, but leaving us, in this world, more and more to our own devices. Per His plan.
As such, we have free will. As such, we must be allowed to grow up and exercise our free will. Thus, we see the Bible -- and the unfolding of human history -- as starting with God intensly involved in and affecting man's affairs, gradually, releasing his control, as we grow up. Still watching, perhaps even giving an occasional shove here and there, but leaving us, in this world, more and more to our own devices. Per His plan.
Then we disagree.
I have already stated my position.
Shabbat-shalom!
Greetings from the west.
I’ve been trying to relocate something in Prophets or Writings. IIRC, there was a phrase indicating that only Jewish people would teach those gathered from the dispersed, inlcuding the “lost tribes” (the first to be punished by dispersal but to be gathered later). We know that various groups of the nations claim to be the “lost” or to be destined to replace them, so the answer that I’m seeking might be worth finding again. ...and very relevant to Noachides (non-Jews like myself) everywhere as a warning against impersonating or otherwise rebelling, I guess.
On the topic at hand, the new, studying mind of an alien (mine) sees the people of Israel (Jewish people and all) having been dispersed (to be gathered later as G-d’s people before deposing the nations). I have not seen as to whether any Jewish populations would be destroyed by emanation from above while dispersed, but it appears that the chosen people were intended to be left at the mercy of the nations for some time. The nations will be destroyed—each according to the numbers and severities of their misdeeds—for having exercised their free will in persecuting Jewish people (including the misleading—assimilation—of the lost).
But then I, even being an alien, am certainly nowhere near being any kind of Torah expert. Correct me, if I’m wrong. ...but no hurry, and have a great weekend.
Though it presents the fundamental question of how so many innocent people could be made to endure such tragic suffering,
I always have to ask, before God, who is innocent? Who has rights? What did God say to Job? I have but one choice if I am smart, to accept God’s gift of GRACE instead of His righteous judgment.
Just because we cannot see the big picture from our perspective does not mean that G-d does not do everything for a reason.
Until Mashiach comes, look at it this way: an Israelite/Jew (and every Israelite may be called a Jew because each Israelite is an acknowledgement of G-d) is someone born to a Jewish mother or who Halakhically converted. Everyone else is a non-Jew/non-Israelite/gentile/Noachide.
...just had another look at my first comment. It was vague and difficult to read. [g] Suffice to say that I don’t believe those who say that they are the “lost tribes,” and the explanation in your comment is all that is needed. Thank you for the mention of King Yoshiyahu (for study).
To be more clear on the part about the Shoah, could it be that the Nazis and others made their own evil decisions? They exhibited emotion with little intellect in order to murder and intellect with little emotion to rationalize their horrible deeds in wordy documents.
But then I’m still very new to study of the Oral. How much slack are we (all) given to decide as to what right or wrong thing we’re going to do next?
But then I’m still very new to study of the Oral. How much slack are we (all) given to decide as to what right or wrong thing we’re going to do next?
I think you're overrationalizing, trying to understand something that is simply beyond human comprehension. Just know that you have free will and G-d will judge us by our deeds, while it is simultaneously true that absolutely everything is guided by G-d's Providence.
Try to look at it this way: when it comes to you, you have absolute freedom in how you will react to and treat others, and the others are mere "automotons" whose every word and deed is programmed to test you. However--every other human being you come in contact with is absolutely free react to or treat you in any way while you are an automoton programmed to test them.
Each and every one of us has absolute freedom, yet we can do nothing that is not provided for by Divine Providence and that is a test for everyone who has to deal with us.
Please don't even try to understand this. We are dealing with Omnipotence here. This is so far beyond our understanding that I don't even understand the need to understand it. I just accept it.
Hope this helps.
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