Is this the “Catholics aren’t Christians” thread?
Hmm. Converting Christians to Christianity. hmm.
This is a strange story. It makes no sense whatsoever.
I've said it before, the more third world the parish, the more pagan it obviously becomes. Middle class American catholics would be appalled about about Catholicism looks like even in some parts of America..
Bump.
PING
So much for Romans 15:20-21...
Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
Rom 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
I feel sorry for the poor fellow but his and his teachers’ rhetoric is offensive. If anyone accused me of idolatry and of “not letting the gospel in”, I’d punch him too.
First time I’ve ever heard the saints referred to by others as “Gods”, but it’s very fitting.
Should this be moved at some point to the RELIGION FORUM?
Are they talking about Santaria?
I stopped reading right there. This article is ludicrous. What a bunch of B.S.
This had to be written by someone with an agenda, it reads like pure fiction, like someone describing a place he's never been and talking about real people he's never met. This was written to stir passions by someone who knew no-one would be able to check on the veracity of his reporting.
I read through the piece again and got a few search leads and plugged in the religious affairs office. I found this on the US State Department website.
The generally amicable relationship among religions in society contributed to religious freedom; however, in certain southern areas, political, cultural, and religious tensions continued to limit the free practice of religion within some communities. Most such incidents occurred in the State of Chiapas, but government officials, nongovernmental organizations (NGOs), and the evangelical and Catholic churches agree the roots of these conflicts sometimes lie in political, ethnic, or land disputes.
Chiapas is known for its political instability and it wasn't hard to see the agenda in this little piece. What struck me is that the priest, if there is one, was never spoken of, just the pastor of the Evangelical church. Even if this is true, it sounds more political rather than religious.
Here is an article from NCR from 1996 but it shows how the political strife has been going on for many years and that the religious do suffer but it is still all about politics and power and not religion.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n33_v32/ai_18447365
I'm not even saying that some version of this story isn't true but the article had AGENDA written all over in IMHO.
Quix 2: A number of posts above seem to take the tack—ASSUMING that the article was a flakey job by charlatans—that therefore, the allegations were false to so grossly distorted as to be of no value. This also is simply UNTRUE. Now to the article . . .
Quix 3: I fully desired to make this as sweet and winsome as possible. That has not turned out to be the way it’s gone. I don’t know if the spirit was willing and the flesh weak, or not. No, that’s not true. I was quite willing to follow through. It did not feel fitting. It did not flow out that way. The Spirit within me was outraged as I read the article again. There was no peace to soft peddle the horrors involved. The most loving way to speak the Truth in Love was as forcefully as I could. The events begged for it, required it.
Quix 4: I hope it jangles sensibilities. THE WORST it jangles sensibilities will be FAR, FAR, FAR LESS than it jangled the Christian believers who had been stripped, had cold water poured on them and then chile juice and other burning solutions poured on them. Try that for jangled sensibilities and THEN come back to the thread and wail about how forceful the writing is below.
Q5: As John Sanford has said—truth without Love is brutality. Love without truth is useless or destructive sentimentality. There is no way that I know of to honorably soft peddle the truth of this true report. The facts and treatment of the victims slap honest loving believers in the face. A wimpy response is not fitting. A wimpy response is not loving.
Q6: Love has to deal in the truth else it is not love. This article is the truth. Evading it is not Christian.
Q7: As I’ve stated above in the thread, PentChar believers and every other type of congregation of believer has some level of idolatry—sooner or later. I’m not standing in any kind of place of my group is flawless and your group is blackest black.
Q8: But the facts are that this is equal to the beginnings of A MODERN INQUISITION of the same spirit and horror of the DARK AGES INQUISITIONS. Winking at it is not Christian. Nor would a wimpy response be honorable.
Q9: People are welcome to rail at any of my reference groups equally or worse IF AND WHEN they find any such INQUISITIONAL ABUSES ANYTHING CLOSE to this.
Unless and until then, this is the LOW SEWER WATER MARK of so called Christian behavior in our hemisphere and needs to be thoroughly rebuked at loud volume by anyone claiming to be a Christian of ANY denomination, congregation. Failure to stand on the side of Christ and Righteousness on this issue is noted in Heaven. And I assure you, whatever Mary may be able to say on behalf of those turning a deaf ear to these sufferings will fall on another deaf ear.
Village officials in Chiapas punish convert for leaving 'traditionalist Catholic' religion.
I realize that there are various degrees of syncretistic Romanism with local beliefs—even including animism etc. That is NOT AN EXCUSE; THAT IS NOT A “get out of heresy free card” for Romanism.
In itself, that’s a huge indictment AGAINST THE MAGICSTERICAL; AGAINST THE ‘MOST HOLY BISHOPS AND CARDINALS’ who are supposedly leading the Roman congregations in purity and faithfulness to absolute truth as supposedly EXCLUSIVELY contained in the Roman edifice.
All over Central and South America, this indictment against the RC magicsterical, Bishops and other leaders is a huge indictment of outrageous proportions. And, this has been so FOR CENTURIES. The condition has existed for many centuries. The condition has not been corrected for many centuries. There is no excuse for that. Rationalizations will not do.
1. Excuses that Mary has been too busy tatting to beseech otherwise ill-informed Jesus to fix such things; will not do.
2. Excuses that St Joseph has been too busy at carpentry will not do.
. . .
3. Excuses that the local Marxist Bishops have been too busy murdering other Christians and helping spread socialism and atheism will not do.
4. Excuses that Rome was too busy polishing it’s statues and reweaving it’s ancient tapestries, will not do.
. . .
5. Excuses that Rome was too busy pontificating about it’s death grip on it’s assumed exclusive tidy boxed absolute truth will not do.
There has been LOTS of time to correct such—and it’s not been corrected. I don’t think God will wink at the delays and consider them inconsequential. So, please spare me all the wailing about how difficult and endemic such problems are. The RC’s have had their chances to correct such horrible heresies and have utterly failed. Often, they’ve overtly perpetuated such in small and large ways. It’s not ALL the fault of the ignorant peasants and serfs.
Now, we have Holy Spirit blessing and spreading other Christian groups who have enlivened individuals from dead heretical religion to vibrant, living, Spirit-led walks daily with Jesus Christ. Are the RC’s happy that folks have began, renewed, deepened their relationships with Christ? NO! THEY ARE HOSTILE AND JEALOUS OVER LOSS OF TURF and contributors to the money coffers. Impressive Christianity, that.
SAN CRISTOBAL DE LAS CASAS, Mexico – Juan Mendez Mendez became a Christian in a village outside of this city in Chiapas state on April 7, and two days later local authorities put him in jail – for leaving their religious blend of Roman Catholicism and native custom.
That’s a fact. That’s a simple, straightforward fact. No equivocating, rationalizing; slipping and sliding, running and hiding will change that basic fact. It happened that way.
Note the BLEND of Roman Catholicism and native CUSTOMS. That’s an easy blend that occurs all around the world. Rome has clearly often been demonstrated to perpetuate it. Rarely has Rome corrected it. This of course from the MOST HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH which many hereon would insist is the only true church and the only church through which the truly truest truly true truth can flow from. Obviously, the vivid examples of such syncretism around the world proves that contention utterly and horribly false.
A catechist or doctrinal instructor in the “traditionalist Catholic” church in the village of Pasté (pahs-TEH), the 25-year-old Mendez was released on Tuesday (April 10) after spending the night in jail.
Virtually always on FR, when an RC believer hears of another RC believer leaving the RC edifice, the allegation is foisted on readers that the leaver 100% MUST/HAD TO HAVE BEEN an ignorant poorly educated, church ignorant serf or some such. Many of us have known that to be hogwash all along. Here we have the one in charge of educating the flock on such issues being the one who has left. Clearly that argument here falls with a huge splash, to the ground, dead and worthless.
The previous Easter Sunday, political bosses in the Tzotzil Maya village noticed him missing from a church festival involving what Mendez considered to be idolatrous rites; they summoned him that evening.
As we have seen on the forum, idolatry has fierce defenders whether directly or tangentially. Here, clearly the RC folks have the local political bosses in their clique. They had the power to summon an earnest believer in Jesus Christ who had chosen to avoid any participation in anything he considered idolatrous and an insult to His Lord. Praise God for His faithfulness and for this believer’s courage in the face of such earthly abuse of power.
“They said, ‘What do you mean that you’ve accepted Christ – you mean you don’t believe in our gods [Catholic saints]?’” Mendez told Compass. “And I said, ‘Well, those were just apostles, and now I belong to Christ.’”
Interesting here that the RC folks called the images of their saints “our gods.” Nothing ambiguous about that. No amount of weaseling will remove that stain. That’s what they said. That’s clearly what they meant. The behavior of the locals confirms that attitude and construction on reality day in and day out as they have for centuries.
Thankfully, Mendez’s new faith in his new RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST ALONE was up to the challenge and he stood his ground. What an anointed answer. They were merely Apostles. Mendez will now more properly focus on CHRIST ALONE—giving ALL THE GLORY, ALL THE ADORATION, ALL THE ELEVATED EMOTIONAL REVERENCE TO THE ONLY ONE WORTHY IT.
The town leaders threatened to jail Mendez, and the following day they summoned him again after consulting with villagers, including other catechists. Mendez verified to them that he had heard the gospel in another community and now wanted to become part of an Alas de Aguila (Eagle’s Wings) church in Pasté, he said.
How lovely. The CURRENT INQUISITION has CLEARLY arrived in Chiapas. Jail is threatened. How Christ-like. The new Evangelical’s beliefs and preferences mattered little to POWER. The darkness of the dark ages has leaked into our era.
The officials threatened to strip him and throw cold water on him in jail, Mendez said. “You know what else we’re going to do?” one of them told the father of three pre-school children. “We’re going to beat you. We’re going to hit you.”
Thankfully, these turned out to be mostly threats. But they were certainly not music to poor Mendez’s ears at the time.
Mendez said he replied, “‘You know, if you’re going to beat me, then here I am. Here I am, if you’re going to beat me.’ But another said, ‘No, we’re not going to beat him.’”
Mercifully, by God’s grace, Mendez stood his ground for His Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ vs all the !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! and doctrines of men hoopla of the Roman edifice.
After questioning Pasté Alas de Aguila pastor Jose Gomez Hernandez – confirming that Mendez planned to attend his church, though he had not yet had the opportunity to do so – village officials decided to jail the new Christian last Monday night (April 9).
And the CURRENT INQUISITION struck decisively and brutally. Some RC posters have inferred or alleged that Mendez was essentially stupidly outrageous in his statements. That’s simply not true. Nevertheless, the darkness of the Dark Ages throws him in the current dungeon, regardless.
I’m curious what Mary’s response to such is supposed to be. Perhaps someone could educate me. Perhaps she’s too busy tuning her two non-omniscient, non-omnipresent ears to the millions seeking her supposed miraculous powers in their behalf so she can’t bother about some clueless serf being thrown in the modern dungeon for his theological stupidities. That must be it.
Members of the Alas de Aguila church were allowed to visit him. He said he told one of them, “If I have to be a prisoner, I have no other alternative but to continue pressing forward.” He added that his wife, who put her trust in Christ along with Mendez, “despite this situation has been very happy, and in her faith she wants to press forward also.”
Smells like the fragrance of Holy Spirit on these new believers. They can tell the difference between dead formal !!!!TRADITION!!!, !RELIGION! and RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LIVING CHRIST. And they want no part of the old dead !RELIGION! They are willing to die for their Lord, if need be. But not for dead form and ritual—especially idolatrous ritual. Praise God for their courage and pluck. Clearly a work of Holy Spirit and not of their own fleshly tenacities.
Mendez was not hurt while in jail from 5 p.m. to 6:30 a.m. and was released without further threats, he said, though another Alas de Aguila pastor, Antonio Vasquez, said “there is certainly a threat.”
Of course there’s a threat, still! Threatening to strip him, pour cold water on him; beat him; using every means they can trump up or muster to intimidate him and his family! Darkness is expert at threats and at carrying them out.
“What is further painful to me,” Pastor Vasquez told Compass, “is that the brethren in our church continue to contribute to and participate in the pagan festivals, because if they don’t the local authorities will take all these people to jail.”
Clearly the RC’s are not the only ones compromising truth and righteousness, sadly. What an outrage. Where’s the local Bishop to insure that this hideous INQUISITION stops immediately? Isn’t he the one who stands for absolute truth; Christ’s Righteousness and . . . oh, dear . . . Christ’s Love??? I guess he’s busy counting the donations from the festivals.
Compass declined to contact Pasté village head Mariano Lopez Gomez, as an international news agency questioning him or other village officials about the jailing of Mendez could result in further abuse of the fledgling Christian. Pastor Vasquez said that in the municipality of Zinacatan, to which Pasté belongs, local traditionalist Catholic officials in some of the area’s 46 communities prohibit any form of evangelization.
Mere communication results in more oppression and abuse. All in the name of Mother, Mary, of course. Bless her mercifulness. And, presenting the truths of Scripture from an Evangelical perspective is prohibited. How Christ-like. Impressive. The darkness descends and floods the area with a death grip.
“There are still areas where they do not permit the gospel,” he said. “They don’t want it, and they reject it to the point that there are some brothers who have been prisoners in other communities.”
So dangerous, this simple Gospel of Jesus The Christ. Sounds pretty New Testament. The religious rulers are up in arms and throwing the true believers into jail right and left. The darkness descends, infects the leaders and floods the area with an imprisoning iron death grip.
Home Burned, Family Tortured
Vasquez, whose church has grown to 60 to 80 mainly Tzotzil- or Tzeltal-speaking people since he began it in 1996, is no stranger to area persecution from traditionalist Catholics.
!!!!TRADITION!!!! strikes again. It crucified Christ and still imprisons authentic believers who merely want a deepened relationship with God. Thankfully, God is keeping score and will bless them accordingly.
In 1998, local political bosses (caciques) put him in jail for 24 hours without food. In 2000, he was released from jail only after the intervention of Chiapas Religious Affairs officials – who promptly demanded that he contribute to and participate in the traditionalist Catholic religious festivals, which the pastor said amounted to a denial of his faith.
How sweet. A forced fast. Obviously for his spiritual betterment. And the jail was clearly to help him identify with the arrested Christ. Oh, my mistake. He was a victim of the CURRENT DESCENDING DARK AGES INQUISITION. Deny his faith and his new RELATIONSHIP WITH THE RISEN CHRIST—or suffer more imprisonment and abuse. How Christian of the CURRENT INQUISITION. Thankfully, God is keeping score. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness. God keeps VERY GOOD score.
“An attorney from the government told me, ‘You know what? I’m a Christian, but you have to do what we say,’” Pastor Vasquez recalled. “And I told her, ‘As an authority you cannot obligate me to deny my faith, because, as you know very well, that goes against the constitution. Secondly, as a Christian, you cannot obligate me to deny my faith and all the things that my faith requires.’ So she was left something ashamed.”
Thankfully, she had the integrity to be ashamed. Evidently that’s more than the local Bishop has. He could put a stop to it immediately. Clearly he has other priorities. Maybe they are monetary. Maybe they are bias. Maybe they are turf. Maybe they are all of the above. They are clearly NOT to behave LIKE CHRIST.
The state religious affairs ministry had more success forcing his congregation to commit to participating in the traditionalist Catholic rites, which bring caciques not only festival fees but alcohol sales income. The congregation subsequently abandoned him, Pastor Vasquez said.
How sad that the sheep were manipulated by the local officials—the CURRENT INQUISITION. Darkness won that round.
“They said to me, ‘You like to get into trouble, and we don’t want trouble, so we’ve signed the agreement with the government,’” Pastor Vasquez said. He was going to leave the area, but he said God told him two things: “Cowards flee,” and “Cowards have no part in me.”
Thankfully, he could still hear The Lord!
Hence he signed the government agreement, which allowed him to continue preaching as long as he contributed to and participated in the traditionalist Catholic festivals – something “very painful,” he said. The church grew so much, however, that by August 20, 2000, the caciques again jailed him, his father and his two brothers – and burned down his house.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, so the compromising festival attending and fees were not enough. TURF was a huge issue, too. Dark Evil doesn’t like the light. Can’t stand the Light of The World having more clout in individual’s lives than the stooges of evil do. Sounds like these leaders were cut from the same cloth as the RELIGIOUS leaders of Jesus’ dusty pathed days.
“The next day, when they took me out of jail and to the municipal manager, he told me, ‘Hey, Antonio, how was it that you came to burn down your house?’” Pastor Vasquez said. “I said, ‘How am I, a prisoner, going to burn down my house?’ He said, ‘Go see your mother,’ because my mother and my two younger sisters had remained at home.”
The cheekiness of such TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC POLITICAL leaders. How impressive! Clearly the CURRENT INQUISITION IS ALIVE AND DEADLY in Chiapas.
Pastor Vasquez found that his family members were able to flee the house, which was reduced to ashes.
Maybe they needed more ashes for ash Wednesday or some other ritual. There must be some righteous excuse for burning a man’s house to the ground with mother and sister having to escape the flames. What a horror! But it’s OK. It’s all in the name of The Mercy of Mother Mary.
He managed to build a house from donated wood and sheets of laminate for a roof, but local authorities cut his water line and electricity. He has lived by candle light, cistern capture and water sold from vendors for the past six years.
Forget loving one another that the world may know—THIS CURRENT INQUISITION doesn’t have those verses in ANY of its Bibles. Nor does it have the verses about feeding one’s enemies etc. NAW, THE TURF WINNING DARK AGES CURRENT INQUISITION WINS! No electricity; no water. Suffer theological serf, suffer—in the name of The Mercies of Mother Mary, of course.
Chiapas state officials had secured an agreement from local chieftains to restore the pastor’s water and electricity, but secretly they conspired to let leave him without the services, he said. The last statement on the matter that Pastor Vasquez heard from a state official was, “Forget about it – nothing can be done.”
Isn’t that sweet. The all powerful Bishop and the all powerful and 100% righteous MAGISTERICAL and all the applicable !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! all decree that the believer in Love with Jesus Alone must suffer, serf, suffer.
No longer contributing funds or participating in the alcohol-drenched festivals that pay homage to Catholic saints, in 2004 Pastor Vasquez found his father and brothers jailed while he was preaching in another city. The caciques stripped them and threw cold water on them, he said, as well as stung them with chile juices and a sprayed chemical compound that burns the skin.
Sounds like the Tenaciously Faithful Sisters of The Mercies of Mary struck full force this time. The Darkness descends and floods across the land. The RELIGIOUS rulers not only do NOT look the other way—they send the modern Sauls out to persecute the saints. Obviously the mercies of Mother Mary chose the chile juices to warm the poor serfs up from the cold water. Quite merciful, that.
They were freed only after intervention from state officials.
Because of the complicity of government agencies, “It’s easy for these kinds of abuses to be carried out with impunity,” said Esdras Alonso Gutierrez, head of San Cristobal’s ministry of religious affairs and founder of the Alas de Aguila movement.
Yeah, welllll, when the Bishop and underlings are in bed with the alcohol vender and the banker, the darkness flows freely.
“The situation in the areas around San Cristobal has calmed in San Juan Chamula, but beginning in 1998-2000, violence in the region outside of San Juan Chamula has been increasing,” Alonso told Compass. “In the last Chiapas administration under Gov. Pablo Salazar, there were no murders in San Juan Chamula, but there has been persecution in other areas: Huistan, Zinacatan, Las Margaritas, San Cristobal de las Casas, Ocosingo and La Trinitaria, among others.”
That’s comforting. No murders, finally. Progress. Somewhat. But more violence . . . Must be that Tenaciously Faithful Sisters of the Mercies of Mary VIOLENCE BRIGADE we have to thank for this wonderful example of Christian charity and love in action.
Anyone got a big garbage bag? A normal barf bag will not do.
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The ignorance of Catholcism displayed on this thread is mind boggling.
I see it’s time for me to leave this forum.