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Pope stokes debate on Darwin and evolution
The Times Online ^ | April 12, 2007 | Mark Bridge and agencies

Posted on 04/13/2007 5:58:38 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

Evolution has not been “scientifically” proven and science has unnecessarily narrowed humanity’s view of creation, Pope Benedict has said in his first reflections on the origins of life.

In comments to students, published yesterday in German, the Pope – who took office in April 2005 – stopped short of endorsing intelligent design and said “faith alone” could not “explain the whole picture”.

But, he said: “We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory.”

He advised the students not to choose between creationism and evolutionary theory but to adopt “an interaction of various dimensions of reason”.

He said: “I find it important to underline that the theory of evolution implies questions that must be assigned to philosophy and which themselves lead beyond the realms of science.”

Benedict reflected on comments of his predecessor, John Paul II, who said that theories of evolution were sound as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God, and that Darwin’s theory of evolution was “more than a hypothesis."

He said: “The pope [John Paul] had his reasons for saying this. But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to verify or disprove the theory.

Evolution has come under fire in recent years by proponents – mostly conservative Protestants – of “intelligent design,” who believe that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher power.

In the United States, supporters of both camps have often clashed over what students should be taught in state schools. New attention has been focused on Roman Catholic views of the issue since Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna said in a speech that restricting debate on Darwin’s theories amounted to censorship.

The Pope’s comments, recorded in the new book Creation and Evolution, appear alongside the reflections of Cardinal Schönborn and others who attended a meeting of students at the papal summer estate at Castelgandolfo outside Rome in September.

His remarks were consistent with one of his most repeated themes, that faith and reason are interdependent and that science, however vital, should not rule out God.

“Science has opened up large dimensions of reason... and thus brought us new insights,” he said. “But in the joy at the extent of its discoveries, it tends to take away from us dimensions of reason that we still need.

“Its results lead to questions that go beyond its methodical canon and cannot be answered within it.”

Since taking office, the Pope has sent mixed signals on evolution. In November 2005, Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, told a press conference that the Genesis account of creation and Darwin’s theory of evolution were “perfectly compatible” if the Bible was read correctly.

But last year, Benedict fired his chief astronomer, Father George Coyne, after the American Jesuit priest made similar comments in The Tablet. The sacking was interpreted by commentators as a clear endorsement for intelligent design.

The comments of this Pope, like those of John Paul II, best adhere to the doctrine of theistic evolution, which sees God creating by a process of evolution. This is accepted – openly or tacitly – by Roman Catholicism and the mainstream Protestant denominations.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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1 posted on 04/13/2007 5:58:40 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

Other than the fact that they report a rumor that turned out not to be true (Pope Benedict did not fire Father Coyne) this seems like a fairly good article.


2 posted on 04/13/2007 6:52:30 AM PDT by Varda
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To: Alex Murphy

“in matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision ... we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture.”

-St. Augustine of Hippo


3 posted on 04/13/2007 6:59:42 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
"That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture."

ROTFL! St Augustine argues in favor of sola scriptura...

4 posted on 04/13/2007 7:04:28 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
LOL...what, you mean like when he argued it here?

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. [267] So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichæus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you;--If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichæus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel.

5 posted on 04/13/2007 7:53:17 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

St. Augustine was such a kidder.


6 posted on 04/13/2007 8:10:47 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("His mother said to the servants, 'Do whatever He tells you.' ")
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To: Claud

good one. :)


7 posted on 04/13/2007 11:24:41 AM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: Alex Murphy
But, he said: “We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory.”

You can't bring 10,000 layers of geological strata, a living dinosaur, a living pharoah, or a star into a laboratory either. There is more to science than Popperian falsification.

Ironically, some evolution proponents insist on Popperian falsification as the definition of science in order to attack Creationism or Intelligent Design. Everything would be a lot better if people would admit that science rests more on utility rather than logic.
8 posted on 04/13/2007 3:09:05 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; marron; P-Marlowe; Alex Murphy
The comments of this Pope, like those of John Paul II, best adhere to the doctrine of theistic evolution, which sees God creating by a process of evolution. This is accepted – openly or tacitly – by Roman Catholicism and the mainstream Protestant denominations.

The underlined part is wrong. "Mainstream" protestantism has changed considerably from what this author thinks it is.

There are very few adherents in those old protestant denominations compared to huge numbers in the conservative, evangelical churches -- whether denominational or independent.

The single largest faith type in the US is baptistic.

9 posted on 04/13/2007 5:20:26 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: dan1123

On maybe patterns of inference or whatever one wishes to call it. I have read a short biography of Newton whose author I cannot now recall who relates that even as a child Newton was intrigued by patterns of light he saw and as he mastered the math of the day used it began to build his theories of reality. After all, by the age of twenty he had substantially formulated them. Whatever “insight” is, it plays a larger role than the simple piling up of evidence.


10 posted on 04/13/2007 5:44:08 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Alex Murphy

Gotta love Pope Benedict — relying on the Bible!


11 posted on 04/13/2007 7:15:16 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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To: Alex Murphy; pblax8; oakcon; newbie 10-21-00; Bloc8406; Ransomed; AliVeritas; The Klingon; dcnd9; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

12 posted on 04/13/2007 7:17:33 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: Alex Murphy

I don’t see evolution as such a problem. The “of their kind” in the creation accounts take care of that. I have no doubt God would have used something like micro-evolution within these “kinds” in order to insure survival of his creation in a dynamic, ever changing world. I don’t think science supports macro-evolution. I don’t want to turn this into an evolution thread, I just want to say I believe a thinking person can have faith in the Genesis account without feeling for a second they are compromising their intellect. I like this Pope.


13 posted on 04/13/2007 9:20:26 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: Alex Murphy
The Pople actually advanced the view that God created life through evolution, with the creation in Genesis explained as an allegory.

I couldn't agree more.

14 posted on 04/13/2007 9:24:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Alex Murphy
I was taught evolution all through K-12 Catholic school, I'm glad they did. They weren't afraid of science!


15 posted on 04/13/2007 9:25:21 PM PDT by Central Scrutiniser (Never Let a Fundie Near a Textbook. Teach Evolution!)
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To: xzins

Great catch, dear brother in Christ!


16 posted on 04/13/2007 9:32:21 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Central Scrutiniser

You want to explain this post ?


17 posted on 04/13/2007 11:08:05 PM PDT by Running On Empty
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To: Running On Empty

I don’t have to explain jack squat.

Pope JPII was cool, hence the photo.


18 posted on 04/13/2007 11:11:13 PM PDT by Central Scrutiniser (Never Let a Fundie Near a Textbook. Teach Evolution!)
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To: Central Scrutiniser

Thanks for your reply.

I thought he was cool, too. I had a chance to meet him personally and it was a great experience. It was before he became so weakened by Parkinsons.

12 years of Catholic school, huh? Hm-m-m


19 posted on 04/13/2007 11:38:38 PM PDT by Running On Empty
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To: xzins; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; marron; T'wit; metmom; DaveLoneRanger
The underlined part is wrong. "Mainstream" protestantism has changed considerably from what this author thinks it is.

Hi, xzins! I readily accept that your characterization is true. But your reply doesn't tell me anything about what the mainstream protestant view of evolution is, assuming there is such a consensus view. Can you give me a quick "heads-up" on that?

I don't want to make any rash assumptions about protestant belief here, though I would really like to discuss evolution theory, especially with regard to whether evolution theory is "complete." I think it is not complete, for two reasons: (1) it gives no plausible account of the origin of life; and (2) it gives no explanation of man whatever. Still, it might have been a tool in God's toolkit for the development of the physical side of (lower-order?) creature -- if I might put it that way.

Please let me make it clear: I hold no brief whatever for macroevolution. I think it is a "myth" in the strict sense of that word. Microevolution, on the other hand, might have something going for it.

I suspect Pope Benedict rejects both the materialism and the insistence on randomness of the Darwinist account. As do I. But I didn't have to hear this from him first. It just seems evident to me that a reasonable person of faith would see on the evidence that these requirements of Darwinist orthodoxy do not comport with and cannot explain what we actually see in nature; i.e., the created world.

What do you think?

20 posted on 04/14/2007 9:20:13 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
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