DISPENSATIONALISM: Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth

John Stevenson Bible Study Page ^ | John Stevenson

[topcat54]

Thanks for that, but you highlighted 13:6 in particular. That’s where my comment was directed. I don’t think I got an answer.

Can we expect some futurist press conference with Jesus?

[Uncle Chip]

Justin Martyr did.

Did he really? I have this from Justin Martyr:

"I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built ... For Isaiah spoke in that manner concerning this period of a thousand years."[Justin Martyr from A Dictionary of Christian Beliefs. David W. Bercot, Editor]

And this also from Justin Martyr:

""There was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem".

[Uncle Chip]

I believe Christ will appear a second time to eschatologically complete what He began at His first coming.

I wonder if you could clarify this statement of yours above: Will Jesus come physically in the flesh to this earth a second time in order to complete this?

[topcat54]

Could you explain what you mean in clearer terms?

"Soul winning" is generally associated with that Christian subculture which regards the "flesh" as inferior and the "spirit" superior (pseudo-gnostics), and thus the work of preaching the gospel is directed at saving souls in anticipation of the rapture.

"Kingdom building" I view as a more fully orbed approach to preaching the gospel which see all of man, complete in body and soul, as being the object of Christ's salvation program, in both this world and the next.

And, by extension, the world becomes open to the positive effect of the gospel as well. "For God so loved the world ...". Kingdom builders can see the work of bringing the good news in activities such as holding political office, creating beautiful art, or even cleaning streets. "Soul winners" tend to view traditional "evangelists" as the only means to their end.

Kingdom builders are "soul winners" in the best sense, but that is not always the case with the first group. They often see Kingdom building" as akin to polishing brass on a sinking ship.

An interesting article on the subject is Gnosticism, the Soul-Only “Gospel,” and the End Times .

As a side question, if you don't believe that modern day Israel is related to the Israel mentioned in the Bible, do you believe that America does not need to support or help her?

The United States of America as a political entity should assist all her political allies, whether they be England, Germany, Israel, Japan, South Korea, etc. There is no reason to treat Israel as politically different from any other nation.

However, I believe the US already spends far too much money bailing out its political friends with foreign aid. I would not oppose an across the board cutback including Israel.

[topcat54]

Will Jesus come physically in the flesh to this earth a second time in order to complete this?

I believe Jesus will appear bodily, physically (with the same body with which He ascended to the Father) a second time in the future.

Whether He will actually step on the current thing we call the earth is a question still in my mind. It may well be that His contact will only be with the new heavens and new earth, since the recreation of heavens and earth is part of the chronology for His return.

[Uncle Chip]

Whether He will actually step on the current thing we call the earth is a question still in my mind. It may well be that His contact will only be with the new heavens and new earth, since the recreation of heavens and earth is part of the chronology for His return.

And yet Job in Chapter 19:23-26 records the following:

"Oh that my words were now written! Oh that they were printed in a book! That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

"For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

[topcat54]

"For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

Well, seeing that Job was written many years before Jesus' first appearance, that certainly seems to have been made true. The Redeemer of Israel did appear on the earth.

[topcat54]

Did he really?

By most accounts Justin was what we would call premillenarian.

As my quote indicated Justin believed there we other sincere, orthodox Christians who held another view of the millennium

Also, do not confuse Justin's premillennialism with modern dispensationalism.

Justin believed that the Church was the fulfillment of all the promises to Israel, basically the subject of his Dialog with Trypho.

[Frumanchu]

UC:Do you know of any ante-Nicene father who was not Premillenial?

e-s:If they were scholars of renown, surely he'd have named them....

For starters: Mathetes, Hermas, Clement of Rome, Didache, Barnabas, Irenaeus, Hegesippus, Origen, Victorinus of Pettau, Coracion, Methodius, Eusebius, Augustine.

[Cvengr]

Distinction between Rapture & 2nd Advent

RAPTURE Feature	Rapture VERSE	2nd ADVENT Feature	2nd ADVENT VERSE
Private	Acts 1:11	Public	Rev 1:7
Occurs in the Air	1Thes 4:17	Occurs on Earth	Zech 14:4
Church goes to Heaven	Jn 14:3	Church returns with Christ	1Thes 3:13
Judgment of believer's works	2Cor 5:10	Baptism by Fire	Matt 25:31-46
Removal of the ministry of Holy Spirit as Restrainer	2Thes 2:6-7	Removal of Satan	Rev 20:1-3
Change in believer's body	Phil 3:21	Change in the Earth	Zech 14:9 Rom 8:19-22
End of Church Age	Col 1:25-28 Eph 3:1-5 Rom 16:25-26	End of Jewish Age
Israel still under divine discipline		Discipline ended for Israel
Believer taken from Earth	1Thes 4:16-18	Unbeliever taken from Earth	Matt 24:37-43
Source of comfort	1Thes 4:18	Source of terror	Rev 6:15-17

[editor-surveyor]

"Thanks for that, but you highlighted 13:6 in particular. That’s where my comment was directed. I don’t think I got an answer.
Can we expect some futurist press conference with Jesus?"

And you wonder why few bother to answer your questions.

Your questions run from the wimsically condescending such as this, to the overtly mendacious 'have you stopped blaspheming the Holy Spirit' type assaults.

Yes, we can expect the Lord to return physically to the earth, and do battle with the assembled nations (NATO) and defeat "That man of sin," the satanically indwelt political and spiritual leader of the world, that it will take the prophecied period to bury the dead, and the millenial reign will begin at that time.

What I won't go out on a limb on is whether the northern tribes will have returned before, or after that time, although I lean somewhat toward before.

[topcat54]

We, let’s just take one feature of this arbitrary table and check it out with the Bible.

Rapture: Private Acts 1:11
Rapture: Occurs in the Air 1Thes 4:17

“Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."” (Acts 1:9-11)

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

Let me observe a few things.

Jesus was literally on the earth when He was taken up, not in the air. So either Acts 1 is incorrect, or it is speaking of some other event and this author of this table is just plain wrong regarding the "rapture" being a "private" event.

The language of 1 Thessalonians 4 belies the futurist claim that it is a “private” event. “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.” This is the voice of the herld of the King come to claim His kingdom. “Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.” (1 Cor. 15:24,25)

[Uncle Chip]

"For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

Well, seeing that Job was written many years before Jesus' first appearance, that certainly seems to have been made true. The Redeemer of Israel did appear on the earth.

Yes, but did Job in his flesh see Him at that time, or will he see Him on this earth at a later time?

[topcat54]

I still do not see how your claim regarding Zech. 13:6 is a slam dunk for the futurist theories.

Call them condescending or mendacious or whatever you will, the fact is that you have a set of assumptions that many folks cannot buy hook, line, and sinker, and when you are asked about them you resort to obfuscation and other diversion tactics.

I have a whole series of questions and observations about the prophecy of Zech 12-14.

Yes, we can expect the Lord to return physically to the earth, and do battle with the assembled nations (NATO) and defeat …

NATO! Wholly cow. Last week it was the G8 and before that it was the EU and 30 years ago it was the Common Market.

Which TV guru is pushing the NATO line this week?

that it will take the prophecied period to bury the dead,

Just out of curiosity, how many people have to die and have their blood shed so that it comes “up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs” (Rev. 14:20)?

[topcat54]

Yes, but did Job in his flesh see Him at that time, or will he see Him on this earth at a later time?

Well, for one the two things are not necessarily linked in reality, although they may have been linked in Job’s mind.

Christ did stand upon the earth and Job will see God in the flesh when he (Job) is resurrected from the dead.

In Job’s case that will not happen until after the Second Coming. Certainly that will happen in the new heavens and new earth.

[topcat54]

“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day..” (John 6:39)

Literally speaking, how does the pre-tribber interpret this passage? What event(s) is(are) being referred to?

[editor-surveyor]

"the fact is that you have a set of assumptions that many folks cannot buy hook, line, and sinker, and when you are asked about them you resort to obfuscation and other diversion tactics."

There you go again. You constantly bloviate with these accusations, rather than discuss rationally what has been presented, that always demolishes your position. There is no way to debate anything with you.

"NATO! Wholly cow. Last week it was the G8 and before that it was the EU and 30 years ago it was the Common Market."

Nice smoke screen, but common markets don't go to war. NATO has been the military wing of the Roman empire for almost as long as I have been alive, and their reach continues to extend, now even into the Baltic states, so any major military excursion on planet earth will most likely be carried out by them.

"Just out of curiosity, how many people have to die and have their blood shed so that it comes “up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs” (Rev. 14:20)?"

Why don't you just come out and say that you don't believe God's word? Skip the frivolous, derrisive, condescending quips, and come out of the closet.

[editor-surveyor]

"Literally speaking, how does the pre-tribber interpret this passage?"

"That last day" begins when the Lord sets foot on earth bodily, and it lasts for one thousand years, exactly as Peter explained.

[Lee N. Field]

I posted a link to this very graphic a week or so ago, and called it "bad gospel" then.

Do you want to stand by what's written in the lower right corner (to wit, that the millennium is under a "works no faith" regime)?

[topcat54]

Welcome to the big leagues.

Nice smoke screen, but common markets don't go to war. NATO has been the military wing of the Roman empire for almost

Roman Empire??? This is the 21st century, isn't it? Where is the emperor and senate for this "Roman Empire"?

“In spite of the vain striving of man, of the bold and infamous conquerors throughout the ages who failed in their human attempts, we are beginning to see the Ancient Roman Empire draw together, just as predicted... We believe that the Common Market and the trend toward unification in Europe may well be the beginning of the ten-nation confederacy predicted by Daniel and the Book of Revelation... In spite of those who propose the alternatives to the United States of Europe, and the temporary setbacks it appears to have, it seems that the trend is ever onward... At about 1980 we may fully expect the great fusion of all economic, military, and political communities into the United States of Europe... Imagine that. A "ten-nation economic entity." Is it any wonder that men who have studied prophecy for many years believe that the basic beginning of the unification of Europe has begun?”

Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth, pp. 96-97

“We believe that the Common Market and the trend toward unification of Europe may well be the beginning of the ten-nation confederacy predicted by Daniel and the Book of Revelation... 'At about 1980 we may fully expect the great fusion of all economic, military, and political communities together into the United States of Europe.'”

Ibid, p. 96

“When I wrote that in Late Great, the only possible successor to the Roman Empire (in my opinion) was the European Common Market. But a decade ago, that organization had just six member nations, not the 10 the Bible forecast. In 1979, Greece became the 10th member of the Common Market. Recently, the Common Market went beyond its original economic and trade functions and elected a parliament. This move will eventually fulfill the Common Market's long range goal - to unify its members into a single political body.”

Hal Lindsey, The 1980's: Countdown to Armageddon , p. 15

(May be a bit before your time.)

The Roman Empire is long gone. It was defeated by the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and will never be revived. That's actually what the Word of God says; “And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.” (Dan. 2:44).

Why don't you just come out and say that you don't believe God's word? Skip the frivolous, derrisive, condescending quips, and come out of the closet.

Is this the way you attempt to engage in dialog? By accusing others who disagree with your hard-to-believe eschatology of not believing God’s Word? Sad.

The questions may seem frivolous to you, esp. when you have no answers, but they are not intended to be frivolous.

If you don't have any literalist answer to hard questions, just say so.

Face is, you have no direct answers to hard question about your theories. And when folks ask hard question you run for the tall grass.