Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
Read Zechariah 13 & 14 all of you. Your argument is not with me. It is with Scripture. Read it in its context. This is the context of the Lord’s return.
1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Not true.
...let us now examine a striking yet little-noticed expression, namely "the children of the promise" (Rom. 9:8). In the context the Apostle discusses God's casting of the Jews and calling of the Gentiles, which was a particularly sore point with the former. After describing the unique privileges enjoyed by Israel as a nation (verses 4 and 5), he points out the difference there is between them and the antitypical "Israel of God" (verses 6-9), which he illustrates by the cases of Isaac and Jacob. Though the Jews had rejected the Gospel and had been cast off by God, it must not be supposed that His word had failed of accomplishment (verse 6), for not only had the prophecies concerning the Messiah been fulfilled, but the promise respecting Abraham's seed was being made good. But it was most important to apprehend aright what or whom that "seed" comprised. "For they are not all Israel [spiritually speaking], who are of Israel [naturally]: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (verses 6 and 7). The Jews erroneously imagined (as modern Dispensationalists do) that the promises made to Abraham concerning his seed respected all of his descendants. Their boast was "we be Abraham's seed" (John 8:33), to which Christ replied, "If ye were Abraham's children ye would do the works of Abraham" (verse 39 and see Romans 4:12). God's rejection of Ishmael and Esau was decisive proof that the promises were not made to the natural descendants as such. The selection of Isaac and Jacob showed that the promise was restricted to an elect line. "The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted [regarded] as the seed. For this is the word of promise. At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son (Rom. 9:8,9). The "children of God" and the "children of promise" are one and the same, whether they be Jews or Gentiles. As Isaac was born supernaturally, so are all of God's elect (John 1:13). As Isaac, on that account, was heir of the promised blessing, so are Christians (Gal. 4:29; 3:29). "Children of the promise" are identical with "the heirs of promise" (Heb. 6:17, and cf. Rom. 8:17). God's promises are made to the spiritual children of Abraham (Rom. 4:16; Gal 3:7), and none of them can possibly fail of accomplishment. "For all the promises of God in Him [namely Christ] are yea, and in Him amen" (2 Cor. 1:20). They are deposited in Christ, and in Him they find their affirmation and certification, for He is the sum and substance of them. Inexpressibly blessed is that declaration to the humble-minded child of God -- yet a mystery hid from those who are wise in their own conceits. "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:32). The promises of God are numerous: relating to this life and also that which is to come. They concern our temporal wellbeing, as well as our spiritual, covering the needs of the body as well as those of the soul. Whatever be their character, not one of them can be made good unto us except in and through and by Him who lived and died for us. The promises which God has given to His people are absolutely sure and trustworthy, for they were made to them in Christ: they are infallibly certain for fulfillment, for they are accomplished through and by Him. A blessed illustration, yea, exemplification, of what has just been pointed out above is found in Hebrews 8:8-13, and 10:15-17, where the Apostle quotes the promises given in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Dispensationalists would object and say that those promises belong to the natural descendants of Abraham, and are not to us. But Hebrews 10:15 prefaces the citation of those promises by expressly affirming, "Whereof the Holy Spirit is [not "was"] a witness to us." Those promises extend to Gentile believers also, for they are the assurance of grace founded in Christ, and in Him believing Jews and Gentiles are one (Gal. 3:26). Before the middle wall of partition was broken down, Gentiles were indeed "strangers unto the covenants of promise" (Eph. 2:12), but when that wall was removed, Gentile believers became "fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel" (Eph. 3:6)! As Romans 11 expresses it, they partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree (verse 17)! Those promises in Jeremiah 31 are made not to the Jewish nation as such, but to "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16), that is to the entire election of grace, and they are made infallibly good unto all of them at the moment of their regeneration by the Spirit...""But there is further reason, and a pressing one today, why we should write upon our present subject, and that is to expose the modern and pernicious error of Dispensationalism...
Amen.
I don't understand how Christians can presume that Satan isn't bound. In truth, he has been bound since his inception by God's ordaining will.
I especially don't understand Reformed believers who don't accept this. If something difficult happens to a Christian, are we to think God was not able to intervene and stop our difficulty?
Satan tempts the elect and subverts the condemned. But every action of Satan is under the will and purpose of God. There is no trial or temptation given to a Christian that God does not also give equal and more grace with which to overcome.
Dr E. Did you read what Pink wrote? You appear to have ignorred it along with what most of us have been saying all along.
Have I said that all Jews acquire the promise? No. I have not. I have said the remnant acquires the promise. Pink, like myself, believes that the believing Jews will acquire the promised land of God to Abraham. No contradictions here. Here, again, is Pink’s eschatological view concerning Israel.
“It is a ground for thanksgiving that during the last three or four generations the people of God have given considerable attention to the prophecies of Scripture which treat of the future of Israel. The old method of “spiritualizing” these predictions, and making them apply to the Church of the present dispensation, has been discarded by the great majority of pre-millennarians. With a steadily increasing number of Bible students it is now a settled question that Israel, as a nation, shall be saved (Rom. 11:26), and that the promises of God to the fathers will be literally fulfilled under the Messianic reign of the Lord Jesus (Rom. 9:4). Jerusalem, which for so many centuries has been a by-word in the earth, will then be known as “the city of the great King” (Matthew 5:35). His throne shall be established there, and it shall be the gathering point for all nations (Zech. 8:23; 14:16-21). Then shall the despised descendants of Jacob be “the head” of the nations, and no longer the tail (Deut. 28:13); then shall the people of Jehovah’s ancient choice be the center of His earthly government; then shall the Fig Tree, so long barren, “blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit” (Isa. 27:6). All of this is common knowledge among those who are in any-wise acquainted with dispensational truth.
But the same Word of Prophecy which announces the glorious future awaiting the children of Israel, also contains another chapter in the history of this peculiar people; a chapter yet unfulfilled, setting forth a period in their history darker and sadder than any of their past experiences. Both the Old and New Testaments plainly tell of a season of suffering for the Jews which will be far more acute than even their afflictions of old. Daniel 12:1 says, “And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.” And in Matthew 24:21,22 we read, “For there shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved.”
Pink is in agreement with dispensationalists,not Covenant theologians on this point. The people he is calling dispensationalist in the article do not reflect modern dispensational thought in that dispensationalists today emphasize the unity of the Scripture. We don’t throw out the Old Testament. We don’t throw out the New. We see both as equally inpired and relevant for today.
I’m not quite sure who he is referring to. I know that there were some real abusers in that day (such as the Millerites and the Russellites). Perhaps that is who he is talking about. But as my quote clearly shows, he understood the biblical nature of modern dispensationalism even if he did not give it the name. He believed in a pre-trib rapture and the ingathering of remnant of the nation of Israel to the land God gave their father Abraham . He saw this in Scripture as do we. Topcat’s quote did not negate this. I have absolutely no problem with what Pink said in Topcat’s quote. Pink was one of us.
AMEN! I spent an hour reading Pink this afternoon and recognized the obvious progression of his understanding.
“Biblical optimism is built on the fact that Christ is seated on His throne ruling the nations with a rod of iron.”
Now I ask you again, what nations is He presently ruling with the rod of iron? What nations is He presently breaking and shattering with the rod of His authority/severity? I will repeat what I just posted and you tell me how He is ruling the nations with the rod of authority/severity, “unfortunatly “then came Amalek”; WWI, and then the Depression, and then WWII, the Holocaust and the bomb. Then the millions murdered by communism in Russia, the millions murdered in China and the millions murdered in Cambodia and Rhwanda. There were more wars in the last century than ever before in history. During the last century and into this, the greatest rival to Christianity has entered the battle field for the hearts of mankind”
I will add this, there are more children being born into paganism/heathenism every year than there are converts to Christianity and in the most enlightened of nations, America, Christianity is being censored from the public square. He is not ruling the nations yet with the rod of His authority/severity, that will come during the millennium when Satan is bound for 1000 years and can’t deceive the nations. Now He is calling individuals through the power of His gospel and building up His church.
Matt 12:28,29, “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”
Luke 10:9, “And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.”
The kingdom of God has come in the sense that the powers of the eschatological kingdom (My kingdom is not of this world), the active saving power of God, have actually entered human history in the person and activity of Jesus to redeem men from the kingdom of Satan. The earthly presence of Jesus bound Satan in the sense that he was not able to act freely as he had, but that binding by the presence of Jesus is different than the binding and incarceration of Satan during the 1000 years where he can’t deceive the nations. Here the binding is in reference to his power over individuals as can be seen by the helplessness of the demons in the presence of Jesus and His disciples when they were given power, not nations and certainly not Judas, the Sanhedren or the crowd.
It is wrong to understand these passages to mean that the kingdom of God has come in its fullness and there will be no future coming of the kingdom as we have been taught to petition. The kingdom as the realm in which the will of God is perfectly done is consistently future in the New Testament writings.
A favorite tag line of dispensationalists, usually when they are not about to do the hard work of comparing Scripture with Scripture to discern the spiritual meaning.
This is the context of the Lord’s return. You mean Messiah's appearing. The OT does not differentiate betweeen first and second coming. The hard work is to understand the prophecies in the context of the work of Messiah.
The spiritual meaning of these passage, like many of the OT prophecies, is about the work of Messiah in redeeming His people. This is what He accomplished at His appearing, to die for the sins of His people. E.g.,
"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness."
Jesus Christ is the Fountain of Life.
"Jesus answered and said to her, 'If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, "Give Me a drink," you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water. ... but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.' " (John 4:10,14)
"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."
The fulfillment:
"Then Jesus said to them, 'All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: "I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered."'" (Matt. 26:31)
"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
Fulfilled:
"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet." (1 Cor. 15:24,25)
I could go on.
The literalist requires a yet future fulfillment based on their interpretive presuppositions. The text does not.
All of them. Let me ask you, where do you get your definition of the phrase "rod of iron"? Depending on your source, I think you may have the wrong definition.
I will add this, there are more children being born into paganism/heathenism every year than there are converts ...
Such anecdotes don't do much for my interpretation of the Bible. I interpret the world from the Bible, not vice versa.
The kingdom of God has come in the sense that the powers of the ...
Is this your acknowledgement that we all spiritual the text to one degree or another?
It is wrong to understand these passages to mean that the kingdom of God has come in its fullness and there will ...
Of course I never said that. However, when the fullness of the kingdom apeears it will be in its consummate state, Rev. 21 & 22. Sin and death will be no more.
Christ interpreted eschatological texts literally. He said “When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place...” He did not spiritualize that which he was uncomfortable with. Sorry. Your argument is still with Scripture.
“Who are these people (please be specific) and why would they need to believe in a pre-trib rapture if they are not dispensational on the relationship between Israel and the Church?”
By the way, I am not a strict dispensationalist. I am more in the historical premillennialist camp, but believe in a pre trib rapture.
Why is it necessary for Jesus to come again if He is already reigning and ruling His church and the nations with His rod of iron? If the tribulation is past and Satan is bound and the kingdom has come and everything is spiritually evolving and filling with His glory, why is it necessary for the second coming?
Your point being ... what? As I said that was the old Pink when he was dispensationalist. Before his conversion to eschatological and covenantal truth.
Very good points B-D.
You believe in the return of the remnant of Israel to the land don’t you?
You asserted that the “new” Pink believed something different and then posted an article that didn’t support your assertion. I noted what the editor of the Pink page stated as to show someone from the opposite side of the spectrum agreeing with my characterization of Pink. I see nowhere where Pink recanted his earlier views concerning Israel and the Rapture. Pink wrote about plethora of things. He wasn’t a full-time prophecy writer. His discussion in your article was not eschatological in nature but was rather speaking of what spiritual Israel is. Nothing he said in that article contradicts dispensational thought.
that's what get's my goat more than anything else. I'm a Catholic and we don't believe in a so-called "rapture".
G R A C E. Look it up.
You're kidding, right?
The phrase "abomination of desolation" was originally applied to Antiochus Epiphanes desecration of the temple in the second century BC.
Jesus uses it to refer to the desecration of the temple by the Romans in AD70.
This is plain from the parallel in Luke 21:
""But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, ..." (Lule 21:20,21)
Note how Luke, writing to gentile audience, substitutes the more familiar "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" for "abomination of desolation".
The phrase "abomination of desolation" literally meant something to Jesus and His followers. But it was hardly thousands of years in the future as theorized by dispensationalists. It applied to "this generation".
Well, no one says Catholics get everything wrong. 8~)
They spend so much time looking into a possible future via Revelations they miss the contemporaneous history that's recorded in Scripture.
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:22
“All of them. Let me ask you, where do you get your definition of the phrase “rod of iron”?”
Look at the context of the four passages in which the phrase is used. It is used as a disciplinary tool for the nations.
“Is this your acknowledgement that we all spiritual the text to one degree or another?”
There is no need to “spiritualize” the text here. The context and other passages the other sayings of Jesus are clear that the eschatological kingdom has not yet come and what we have here is the power of the coming kingdom in the person of Jesus to redeem man from the kingdom of Satan. Its power was limited to those that Jesus touched and through those he appointed but then it was efficient only to those individuals they touched. However, even though the disciples were given power, they still had trouble using it.
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