Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
Exactly the opposite...The world is falling into apostasy...
Incidentally, as to orthodox believers who also believe in dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture, there are many. Several of those names, I can provide.
I'm looking for (orthodox) pre-tribbers who are not dispensational (i.e., they hold to a traditional supersessionist view) on Israel and the Church.
That’s not what you asked for though. You asked for names. I provided names. Again, my point was that a pre-trib rapture is not synonymous with dispensationalism. That there were non-dispensationalists that believe in a pre-trib rapture. How they do it is beyond me. I agree, they are inconsistent in their beliefs.
I am not in their camp.
I am in the camp of such great teachers/preachers as Arthur W. Pink, Charles Stanley, John Macarthur, Adrian Rodgers, Norm Geisler, Charles Ryrie, and John Walvoord. I do not agree with each of them on necessarily every point of doctrine, but we agree on more than we disagree based upon our study of Scripture. Please don’t disdain those who love the Word of God thoroughly but don’t come to the same conclusion as yourself.
I am in the camp of such great teachers/preachers as Arthur W. Pink
This Arthur W. Pink?
"But there is further reason, and a pressing one today, why we should write upon our present subject, and that is to expose the modern and pernicious error of Dispensationalism. This is a device of the Enemy, designed to rob the children of no small part of that bread which their heavenly Father has provided for their souls; ... his modern method of mishandling the Scriptures—for modern it certainly is, being quite unknown to Christendom till little more than a century ago, and only within recent years being adopted by those who are outside the narrow circle where it originated"
That’s the one.
When you actually read his description of what he is calling dispensationalism in this passage, you find he is really referring to something quite different than what we are discussing above.
He is speaking of those who do not see Scripture as a unity. A little further down, one reads “The Bible consists of many parts, exquisitely correlated and vitally interdependent upon each other. God so controlled all the agents which He employed in the writing of it, and so coordinated their efforts, as to produce a single living Book. Within that organic unity there is indeed much variety, but no contrariety. Man’s body is but one, though it be made up of many members, diverse in size, character, and operation. The rainbow is but one, nevertheless it reflects distinctly the seven prismatic rays, yet they are harmoniously blended together. So it is with the Bible: its unity appears in the perfect consistency throughout of its teachings. The oneness yet triunity of God, the deity and humanity of Christ united in one Person, the everlasting covenant which secures the salvation of all the election of grace, the highway of holiness and the only path which leads to heaven, are plainly revealed in Old and New Testament alike. The teaching of the prophets concerning the glorious character of God, the changeless requirements of His righteousness, the total depravity of human nature, and the way appointed for restoration therefrom, are identical with the Apostles’ teaching.”
When one actually doesn’t “cherry pick” Pink one also sees these statements by the esteemed theologian, you find that his views are really quite in harmony with modern dispensational thought. For example:
“It is a ground for thanksgiving that during the last three or four generations the people of God have given considerable attention to the prophecies of Scripture which treat of the future of Israel. The old method of “spiritualizing” these predictions, and making them apply to the Church of the present dispensation, has been discarded by the great majority of pre-millennarians. With a steadily increasing number of Bible students it is now a settled question that Israel, as a nation, shall be saved (Rom. 11:26), and that the promises of God to the fathers will be literally fulfilled under the Messianic reign of the Lord Jesus (Rom. 9:4). Jerusalem, which for so many centuries has been a by-word in the earth, will then be known as “the city of the great King” (Matthew 5:35). His throne shall be established there, and it shall be the gathering point for all nations (Zech. 8:23; 14:16-21). Then shall the despised descendants of Jacob be “the head” of the nations, and no longer the tail (Deut. 28:13); then shall the people of Jehovah’s ancient choice be the center of His earthly government; then shall the Fig Tree, so long barren, “blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit” (Isa. 27:6). All of this is common knowledge among those who are in any-wise acquainted with dispensational truth.
But the same Word of Prophecy which announces the glorious future awaiting the children of Israel, also contains another chapter in the history of this peculiar people; a chapter yet unfulfilled, setting forth a period in their history darker and sadder than any of their past experiences. Both the Old and New Testaments plainly tell of a season of suffering for the Jews which will be far more acute than even their afflictions of old. Daniel 12:1 says, “And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.” And in Matthew 24:21,22 we read, “For there shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved.”
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Antichrist/anti_16.htm
and
It should now be evident to every unprejudiced reader that there are two distinct stages in the Second Coming of Christ:—His coming in the air, and His coming to the earth; His coming for the saints, and His coming with the saints. The first great purpose before Him in connection with His return is to receive His people unto Himself. Just as of old God translated Enoch to Heaven before He sent the Deluge upon the ungodly, so will the Church be removed frown this earth before the vials of His wrath are poured out upon it. The second great purpose before the Lord Jesus will be to return to the earth itself, there to set up His Kingdom and reign in righteousness, and it is the nature, the scope, the blessedness, and the duration of this Kingdom-reign which is now to engage our attention.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Redeemers_Return/return_10.htm
Sure sounds like a pre-tribulation dispensationalist to me.
I thought we were trying to be reasonable. Either you know some folks (whose theology is more consistent than warm Jello) who fall into this category or you don't.
You are the one who made the claim, not me.
I think we were talking about all things dispensational, not the Bible. You're not trying to may tricks on me, are you?
And he will deal with a huge number of Jews in the future, in their land, ALSO in fulfillment of His promises.
Yep, in part by killing off two thirds of them.
If a non-dispenationalist made such an outrageous suggestion I can just image what they might get called.
Unless I missed something, and I haven't, the Lord has not returned and split the mount of Olives yet.
If you understood the symbolism of the prophesies you might have a different answer. That that would require another thread.
I’m being literal.
Do I know of a “good guy” that is a non-dispensationalist that also believes in the pre-trib rapture. No. But I hope to convert a few.
I hope you follow in his footsteps.
Later, after he came to biblical truth, he wrote:
First, we must seek to remove a radical misconception which obtains in certain quarters as to the ones with whom God here promised to make this "new covenant," namely, "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Modem dispensationalists insist that this says just what it means, and means just what it says; and with this I am in hearty accord. Nevertheless, we would point out that it is entirely a matter of interpretation if we are to rightly understand what is said; and this can only be accomplished as the Spirit Himself enlightens our minds. Any method of Bible study, or any system of interpretation (if such it could be called) that renders us self-sufficient, independent of the Holy Spirit, is self-condemned. An unregenerate man, by diligent application and the use of a good concordance, may soon familiarize himself with the letter of Scripture, and persuade himself that because he takes its letter at its face value, he has a good understanding of it; but that is a vastly different thing from a spiritual insight into spiritual things. ...Make sure you are using the right Pink.When the apostle here affirms that "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom. 9:6), he means that not all the lineal descendants of Jacob belonged unto "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16)—those who were God’s people in the highest sense. So far from that being the case, many of the Jews were not God’s children at all (see John 8:42,44), while many who were Gentiles by nature, have (by grace) been made "fellow-citizens with the [Old Testaments saints" (Eph. 2:19) and "blessed with faithful Abraham" (Gal. 3:9). Thus the apostle’s language in the second clause of Romans 9:6 has the force of: Not all who are members of the (ancient) visible church are members of the true church. The same thought is repeated in Romans 9:7, "Neither because they are the [natural] seed of Abraham, are they all children" —that is, the "children [or inheritors] of the promise," as verse 8 explains—but "in Isaac the line of God’s election and sovereign grace] shall thy true and spirituals seed be called." God’s promises were made to the spiritual seed of Abraham, and not to his natural descendants as such. ...
In the second half of the last chapter it was shown that the name Israel has a twofold application, both in the Old Testament and in the New, being given to the natural descendants of Jacob and also to all believers. Nor should this in anywise surprise or stumble us, seeing that the one whom God first denominated "Israel" was henceforth the man with the double name, according as he was viewed naturally or spiritually. It should also be duly noted that God’s giving this name unto Jacob is recorded twice in Genesis: "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (32:28); "And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name" (35:10). Is there not here something more than bare emphasis—namely, a divine intimation to us of the dual application or usage of the name?
Instead of becoming or reinforcing a preoccupation with denominationalism, more sanctification might come from simply inculcating Bible doctrine in our soul from the teaching of our particular pastor-teacher who has been gifted with that spiritual gift.
I'm really not here to play games with you.
You made an somewhat questionable claim; i.e., there are non-dispensationalist who believe in a pre-trib rapture.
I asked you to be specific and name names.
You gave me one name; Benny Hinn.
We laughed a bit, and then you have not provided any other names, yet you repeated your questionable claim.
I'm not going to chase you down rabbit holes. Either your "yes" is "yes" or it isn't.
Does that mean you're leaving us? I'll miss you.
I see nothing in that quote that contradicts dispensationalism or negates his earlier thought. One does not attain the promises of God by virtue of a bloodline. One attains them by the grace of God. God made promises to Abraham about his bloodline. He will fulfill those promises to the chosen members of the bloodline who are saved by grace.
Pinks writing here does not make him a Covenant theologian.
Maybe on your street. You ought to get out more.
SCRIPTURE says that 2/3rds will die. It is not my claim. It is a quote directly from Zechariah.
Actually none of these passages contradicts the view that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations at this present time. I did not say he does not go around as a roaring lion. I did not say he doesn't tempt believers. I did not say he has not blinded the minds of the unregenerate. None of these things are related to deceiving the nations.
All I said is that he is bound from deceiving the nations.
If he is not bound then Jesus was wrong about the kingdom of God (Matt. 12:28,29) and He does not have all authority over the nations to make disciples.
I answered you in 69. Do I know of a non-orthodox pre-trib dispensationalist? No.
By the hand of God to satisfy His wrath for the sin of killing the Son of the Landowner? Is that your view? And that Christians will be rapture merely to avoid this divine wrath?
Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)The sad part is that if God were to do that He would be violating His own standards.
“'The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.'” (Numbers 14:18)
God’s wrath only extends as far as the fourth generation against the offspring of the offender. His wrath is swift and sure. He meted out His wrath against “this generation” in the events of AD70. Within one generation all these things happened to apostate Israel.
“And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."” (Matt. 27:25)
The Bible says that God does not bring wrath on a far future generation for old offenses. He has settled the matter long ago. Today He holds out His merciful hand to all those from Israel after the flesh who might come in faith to His Son, the Messiah Jesus, until the time of His return.
"And so all Israel will be saved."
Note the editor of the Pink Page’s comment: Providence Baptist Ministries (PBM) has graciously decided to place “The Redeemer’s Return” on this web Site in an attempted to make available the works of Arthur W. Pink. However, this work does not reflect the views held by Providence Baptist Ministries from an eschatological understanding of the actual events that will take place at The Redeemer’s Return (Mr. Pink held to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church). For an understanding of what PBM believes, to be the biblical approach to the Lord’s return, we invite you to visit our Eschatology web page
In Christ,
Ron Cook/Loyal Webb
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