Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
I didn’t think you would, which is one reason I qualified my statement with “to me.”
Sorry, no it doesn't. Jesus said, "my kingdom is not of this world (tou kosmou toutou)". He never said, "but then my kingdom will be of this world." Which is how you would interpret the passage.
Jesus did NOT tell Pilate He was King of the Jews...
I think you conveniently missed some verses here.
"Pilate therefore said to Him, ‘Are You a king then?’ Jesus answered, ‘You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.’" (v. 37)
Jesus was confirming that He was indeed the king of the Jews, not in a carnal sense that the Jews were expecting. They missed the boat, as are all of those misguided folks today – Christians and Jews – who are still looking for a carnal king on a carnal throne in old carnal Jerusalem.
You really believe A-rabs would be blowing up Jewish men, women and children if Jesus was currently the King of the Jews???
I don’t judge the Word of God by what I read in the newspapers, or by what I think is happening in the world. I judge the world by the Word of the King of the universe who has all things under control and well in hand.
What power will Jesus allegedly have in this fantasy future millennium that He does not already have and exercise? How much more power will He have to exercise dominion over the nations than He has today?
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.” (Matt. 28:18-20)
OK, can you locate them in that passage?
I already did; Revelation 11:7.
"To me" the two mentioned are Enoch and Elijah. "To me", get it? An opinion.
Let me make sure I have this right; the first death is spiritual (post # 405), the second death is the lake of fire. (post # 417 ) Physical death comes between the first death and the second death but it does not get a number. (post # 427) Even though it is appointed for men to die once, believers die twice and unbelievers die three times. (post # 427)
I did not say that spiritual death was “the first death” in 405. What I said was the only death that is actually numbered is the "second death" in Rev. 20. I think this is to contrast with the "first resurrection" also mentioned in Rev. 20. It you have a part in the first resurrection the second death has no power over you.
Beyond this we know that all men are born dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1), and must be made alive by the Spirit in order to enjoy fellowship with Christ. We also know that all men (normally) die physically (Heb. 9:27). These deaths are not numbered in the Bible, so perhaps it is confusing to do so.
Something definitely happened when Adam ate the fruit. You say it was spiritual death, God observed, “the man is become as one of us.” I think I will remain on the fence on this one.
What then did God mean when He said, "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"?
Lots of possibilities. In fact they may not be individuals at all, but rather a symbolic representation of the Word of God; "law and prophets", or OT and NT. Or perhaps the twin witness of believing Jews and gentiles together in Christ's church.
I remembered this in support of your argument that everyone gets to croak at least once. Even those two, IMO.
"Why not Moses or Jeremiah, John the Baptist or Paul?"
They all already died once.
"Or someone not yet born?"
That is quite possible.
"Lots of possibilities."
Yup. I'll still go with Enoch and Elijah though.
2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.It would be speculation to say that this verse applies here. There are a number of passages that suggest that spiritual death is first. There are also reasons to conclude that physical death is first. If I accept your position, then I must exchange one set of objections for a different set. I believe that there is an explanation that will satisfy all objections, I just don't know what it is, nor do I expect one to come along and end the debate. Scripture is not like that.
What about Moses and Elijah? The lawgiver and the prophet. They were both on the Mt. of Transfiguration with Christ.
Deu.34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6.And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
God took Moses, showing him the land he could not cross over to and He buried him. Did anyone actually see him die?
My belief is Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses of Revelation.
I agree that is an appealing theory based upon their presence at the Transfiguration, as you mentioned. (Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30-31)
However, I still must dismiss Moses' role in Revelation 11:1-12 due to the passage you noted, (Deuteronomy 34:5-6), as well as Jude 1:9.
I got a giggle out of this:
"God took Moses, showing him the land he could not cross over to and He buried him. Did anyone actually see him die?"
Did God bury Moses alive? Creepy...
Hehee... Seriously, the Bible says Moses died and that's the Truth to me. Doornail time.
That's a good observation. It isn't a seven year tribulation. Christ told us about it in Matthew 24 and Mark 13:
Mark 13:20 And except that the LORD had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
In Rev.9:5 and 9:10 He tells us the time it is shortened to.
That would be creepy. My thought on that is Moses wrote those 5 books but after he was taken/died someone had to finish that very last part. Once he had been "taken", as Elijah and Enoch were, and they never saw Moses again (as God "buried" him) he would essentially be "dead" to the writer.
God had to be letting us in on that fact as He made it clear who was on the Mt. of Transfiguration with Christ.
As to why Michael is contending with the devil about the "body of Moses" I don't know. Maybe it's about his transfigured body. The bible does say Moses died but then we know he didn't as we see him in a transfigured state. It's something to think about.
Not necessarily. Samuel got to chit-chat with King Saul after he was already dead. (1 Samuel 28:15)
Somehow "chit-chat" doesn't quite fit that event, does it? Saul had to be shaking in his boots.
Was this really Samuel? My understanding of "familar spirits" is that they are demons masquerading as the person and God tells us to have nothing to do with them. Strong's shows them as #178 necromancer - ventriloquist
As I said, it's just something to consider. Will the 2 witnesses be Enoch, Elijah, Moses or someone else?
LOL! Oh, yeah.
Deut 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.Moses was the lawgiver. The eye of the law was not dim nor was its force abated. God took the law out of the way and buried it because the children of Israel could not inherit the promise under the law. I think this takes a point away from Moses, but you get a point when you look at the miracles in Revelation 11.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: (1 Kings 17:1 ) and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.These are the things that Moses and Eliah did.
Seven
Long time no write. It's good to hear from you.
As usual you have given a deeper meaning than I thought of. The eye of the law was not dim nor was its force abated. God took the law out of the way and buried it because the children of Israel could not inherit the promise under the law
Thank you for your deeper insight. You know, rather than take a point away I think it gives Moses one, just because he is the lawgiver. Add that to being on the Mt of Transfiguaration and the miracles of Rev. 11 that you brought up - it just seems that Moses would be one of the witnesses. At least, that's my take on the situation.
Seven, I know you think the end times are farther off but I wonder if perhaps they are walking the earth now.
That's the very sentiment which got Moses and Aaron into trouble. (Numbers 20:9-12)
It's God's power, not man's, and He can loan it out to whoever He likes.
Of course, that line of thought usually opens a can of worms concerning the nature of Good and Evil and almost always concludes with a study of the Book of Job.
God Bless.
Thank you for reminding us. Of course you're right but I think that wording the statement like that was more a slip of the tongue than the thought behind it.These are the things that Moses and Eliah did."
Seven_0 and I argue about a few interpretations, like rapture, but we both recognize God's power in all things. As far as a study in the Book of Job, I have to admit I have seldom gone into it. If you ever find you have extra time please let me know what you find to be the most important parts of Job as they relate to us today. In the mean time I'm going to begin reading it.
Thank you Enosh and God bless you too........Ping
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