Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

Reformedonline.com ^ | Unknown | Brian M. Schwertley

[topcat54]

Conclusion

Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Paul tells us to discard the old ways and walk by the light of faith in Jesus Christ alone.

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" -- Philippians 3:8-9

[Cvengr]

Most dispensationalists don’t pay attention to geopolitics.

Historical trends perhaps, not geopolitics.

[Cvengr]

Why distinguish between the two? God does.

[Cvengr]

Why distinguish between the two? God does.

[Iscool]

Apparently you are because you cannot explain Matt. 19:23,24 in support of your theory.

Both kingdoms were offered to the Jews...

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

The Jews knew and know, the physical kingdom will be restored...On earth...I can't help it if you don't know that...

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

And that's because they are sill blinded...It IS for the Chritians to know the times and the seasons when this event will take place and it hasn't yet...

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus and Pilate are talking about a literal, physical kingdom with a physical king on a physical throne, on earth...Jesus says, 'not yet'...

Jesus has not been a literal king on the earth...He has not ruled the nations with a rod of iron...There have been 60 wars in the last 60 years...He is not ruling in Saudi Arabia, or Africa, or Egypt...That's because his kingdom has not been set up, yet...

[Seven_0]

I did not number the deaths. I only pointed out that for each person spiritual death precedes physical death. That is common to all men (except those who are alive at His coming).

What about "it is appointed to men once to die? Are you saying that it is twice?

[Lee N. Field]

Most dispensationalists don’t pay attention to geopolitics.

Historical trends perhaps, not geopolitics.

Sorry, but that's the kind of stuff I see all the time, trying to scope out the Gog and Magog war. Who's Russia with this week and how does that square with Exekiel and/or Revelation?

[Cvengr]

Most dispensationalists place Gog/Magog as occuring at the end of the Millenium, whereas the 2nd Advent occurs after the Rapture and the Great Tribulation and judgment seat of Christ ascertaining all who are qualified to rule the nations with Christ for a 1000 years, with the bride of Christ prepared for the wedding supper.

The Millenium is still required until all the enemies of our Lord Jesus Christ are made a footstool beneath his feet. Those enemies include Satan, all fallen angels, all religion, carnal believers, all unbelievers, and death.

We still have not witnessed several demon attacks which are to occur during the Great Tribulation.

Three of those attacks in the great Tribulation occur from an army of demons staged in the abyss in Rev 9:1-12; A second demon army attack from those stationed under the Euphrates River in Rev 9:13-21; and a third from a demon army in heaven under direct command of Satan who is cast down to the Earth. Rev 12:7-17.

[topcat54]

With the exception of Jesus, all men born of a woman are born spiritually dead. The plain reading of the context is speaking of Christ's death on our behalf. "not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another -- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (vv. 25&26).

So, just as Christ's died once for all, it is appointed unto all men once to die.

Make sense?

[topcat54]

Let's try it again. The verses I qouted all suport the idea that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom are God are one and the same thing. They must, otherwise you would have knocked down the argument I presented.

You have not addressed any of those verses. Instead you are off spinning tales by some dubious interpretation of selective texts.

Jesus never said "not yet" nor did He ever say He would rule from a carnal throne in a carnal city over a carnal kingdom. And none of those verses say that at all.

"Then Pilate asked Him, 'Are You the King of the Jews?' He answered and said to him, 'It is as you say.' "

Jesus is the King of the Jews, even this very day. That is why He was born, and why He lived, and why He died to be resurrected to life. To secure His kingdom over the Jews and all the nations. He is the Seed of Abraham, the father of nations.

Would you like to try again, or are we done?

[topcat54]

Not those two. They are the same thing as the verses I quoted indicate.

[Lee N. Field]

Most dispensationalists place Gog/Magog as occuring at the end of the Millenium,

Whatever. I picked G/MG as the first handy example to mind.

Point is, dispensationalists are very interested in geopolitics. Fer instance, matching players on the current world stage with passages in Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation (after those texts have been processed by the Dispensationalizer Machine) is Jack van Impe's whole shtick. (I confess to having caught his show a few times, a decade ago, waiting for Babylon 5, when the networks had put it 5 on at some Deity forsaken ratings black hole hour deep nights on Friday.)

[Cvengr]

The one death being referenced in that verse is the reborn man in his death to the natural man, or old sin nature.

[Cvengr]

God didn’t create the body and soul to remain impotent nor evil, nor unrighteousness. The kingdom of our Lord and Savior during the Millenial reign will include body, soul, and spirit under His dominion.

[Cvengr]

The indwelling is not the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit. Never in the Old Testament were believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If they were, then there would have been no need for the Perfect Sacrifice.

[Lounor]

For 177 years, ever since a “pretribulation rapture” became part of any official Christian theology, rapture debaters have generally ignored or twisted pretrib rapture history and concentrated on Scriptural interpretation. The focus on interpretation has accomplished little or nothing. But history is different and can resolve much more. Either the early 19th century “rapture” documents exist in British libraries or they don’t. Historian Dave MacPherson has found in recent decades more of the long forgotten and covered up early rapture documents in Britain etc. than anyone else. Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” for his summary on pretrib development and “Scholars Weigh My Research” for kudos on his findings from leading theologians and church historians. If you think that history isn’t important, consider the fact that Canadian pretrib promoter Grant Jeffrey has stated on his site that the argument that the church never heard of a pretrib rapture for 1800 years has caused “many” (his term) to abandon the pretrib rapture view! Newly found details now reveal massive plagiarism in leading pretrib works as far back as Darby and as recently as current prophecy works! And we now know how much pyramidology and astrology have been employed to try to prove the pretrib view! So don’t ignore history. Even much of the Bible itself is history - history revealing the bad as much as the good in Biblical heroes. I repeat: don’t ignore the history of the pretrib rapture! Lounor

[Seven_0]

So, just as Christ's died once for all, it is appointed unto all men once to die.

Make sense?

Let me make sure I have this right; the first death is spiritual (post # 405), the second death is the lake of fire. (post # 417 ) Physical death comes between the first death and the second death but it does not get a number. (post # 427) Even though it is appointed for men to die once, believers die twice and unbelievers die three times. (post # 427)

Something definitely happened when Adam ate the fruit. You say it was spiritual death, God observed, “the man is become as one of us.” I think I will remain on the fence on this one.

Seven

[Iscool]

Jesus never said "not yet" nor did He ever say He would rule from a carnal throne in a carnal city over a carnal kingdom. And none of those verses say that at all.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

But Now, my kingdom is not from here covers your objection...

I didn't say carnal throne...Those are the words you added...I said physical throne...No wonder you can't find the verses...

"Then Pilate asked Him, 'Are You the King of the Jews?' He answered and said to him, 'It is as you say.' "

Jesus never said that...Here's the real verse...

Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

Jesus did NOT tell Pilate He was King of the Jews...

Jesus is the King of the Jews, even this very day. That is why He was born, and why He lived, and why He died to be resurrected to life. To secure His kingdom over the Jews and all the nations.

You really believe A-rabs would be blowing up Jewish men, women and children if Jesus was currently the King of the Jews??? How is He the King of the Jews if the Jews don't acknowledge Him as the King???

[Enosh]

"... it is appointed unto all men once to die."

As a side note, I would mention that to me Revelation 11:7 indicates even Enoch and Elijah eventually get it.

Bummer. That'll ruin your whole day.

[topcat54]

As a side note, I would mention that to me Revelation 11:7 indicates even Enoch and Elijah eventually get it.

"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. ... When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them." (vv. 3,7)

Hmmm, I can't seem to locate either of these gentlemen in that passage.