Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
My take on the 1/2 week in Revelations is what is left of the 70th of Daniel or 3.5 years.
Could be. Perhaps there are still a few loose end to tidy up on the rapture (aka second coming).
I believe most of the imagery in Revelation is related to the sack of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in AD70.
The “a time and times and half a time” in Rev. 12 has to do with the protection of the faithful woman who gave birth to the child. The context indicates this is speaking of believing Israel (“on her head a garland of twelve stars”) who was the guardian of the oracles of God, the law and prophets, which testified of the Christ to come and the work He would accomplish on behalf of His children.
The woman was protected from the power of Satan who was cast down to the earth at the coming of Messiah (cf. Luke 10:18). This happened during the persecution of the early church by the conspiring apostate Jews and the Romans (Luke 23:12), and finally when Jesus warned His disciples about the trouble that would come upon Israel.
This also corresponds to the second half of Daniel’s 70th week, after Jesus confirmed a covenant with His people.
It’s also interesting to note that the Jewish War lasted 3 1/2 years.
If you're going to try and impersonate a True BelieverTM, At least get the spelling correct.
The prophecy of Zechariah is more in line with John’s prophecy of the end of the millennium, written around 95 A.D, than the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Here are the compared texts.
First, the appearance of the Lord and those that pierced Him, mourning. You don’t have that at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D because the Jews would not have recognized “the One they pierced” at that time since He did not come in a form they recognized as Jesus.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Second, the use of “in that day” means the prophecy is directed to a specific time or period. The phrase is used over 17 times in chapters 12-14. During that time the Lord will make Jerusalem a burden to all nations, not just Rome and gather all nations to come up against Jerusalem, not just Rome. This did not happen in 70 A.D. That was a rebellion against Rome and the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem, not the nations. Daniel had no trouble depicting specific kingdoms in his prophecies. John’s prophecy concerning the nations corresponds better with Zechariah’s than does the spiritualizing of the text to make it conform to a particular eschatology.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Rev 20:7-9, And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:
Third, again, the use of the phrase “in that day” refers to a specific period or time. Here Zechariah is prophesying that the Lord will intervene and rescue Jerusalem and destroy the attacking nations. This obviously did not happen in 70 A.D. as rome continued as the ruling Empire for hundreds of years after. John is specific that the Lord will return and destroy the attacking nations at the end of the millennium. John’s prophecy fits the prophecy of Zechariah better than the spiritualizing that needs to take place in order to make it correspond to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D when there is no evidence that God intervened and destroyed the attacking Roman army.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 14:4 , 5 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 ,7 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light
Rev 20:9 ………… and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
My feelings is that our next president will be the one to come against the city.
I know that no man knows the day or hour but I have alway been suspicious with Mayan calender ending in 2012.
Many would say that this does not leave time for the 7 years of tribulation and I say find the 7 years in the book of Revelation and then we will talk.
You may want to study up on the Hypostatic Union, then we might be able to converse about it. Still awaiting your catching up. It’s sort of hard to discuss doctrine with somebody who refuses to be humble before the Holy Spirit and prefers to fill their mind independent of the active ministry of the Holy Spirit, while condemning all doctrine presented by Dallas Theological Seminary since they are labeled as ‘counter-productive dispensationalists’ by some wannabe reformers.
BTW, I’ve done your homework for you, regarding the compartments of Hades and Scriptural references, however, nobody can perform the homework of spiritual sanctification and developing doctrine in the heart of the believer other than the Holy Spirit Himself upon the believer remaining in fellowship for an expteded period of time for the Holy Spirit to perform His ministry at the pace only He knows how to deliver.
I was mistaken about the Lake of Fire, as I had recalled from memory the four compartments which are better described as Abraham’s Bosom (Paradise), the Torments, Tartarus, and the Abyss (not the lake of Fire). Lucky for the Reformers the Dispensationalists have done some homework, so the Reformers might hear about the difference. These are also discussed quite a bit by some of those DTS professors which have been so maligned in these threads.
Here are some verses for you to study on the basics.
BTW, if these are studied without remaining in fellowship with God through faith in Christ, the effort will merely scar the thinking processes of the student into a legalistic or adversarial fashion, resulting in the backslidden student having a tendency to misunderstand their spiritual significance and possibly later grieving or quenching the Spirit.
Torments: Luke 16:19-31; Acts 13:35; Psalm 9:17; John 3:18; Matt 9:48
Tartarus: a domain for certain fallen angels Gen 6; 2Pet 2:4; Jude 6; Heb 2:9-17; Historic myths of the Titan wars reveal a basis in truth regarding the imprisonment of some fallen angels in Tartartus. Some linkages to Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Dan 3:25
Paradise: Psalm 116, Acts 2:27, Luke 23:39-43; Eph 4:8; Psalm 68; 2Cor 11:25; 2Cor 12;
Abyss: Luke 8:30-31; Rom 10:7; Rev 9:1-2, 11, 7:17, 11:7, 20:1-3;
Lake of Fire: Matt 25:41; Matt 9:48
Through faith in our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus...for our edification and sanctification only by His will and not ours.
The 2nd Advent is not the Rapture. Two different events.
Well stated.
If referring to the Gog-Magog revolution, that occurs at the end of the Millenium. Rapture, Great Tribulation, and the 2nd Advent, not to mention the judgment seat of Christ, rule with a rod of iron, and sanctification of the bride in resurrection bodies are still required prior to the Millenium.
Check out Dwight Pentecost’s, “Things to Come”. I saw it on the web fully loaded once. Outstanding even handed seminary textbook on eschatology. It does a nice, even handed job of reporting pre-, mid, post, and a millenial perspectives. Some attack it because it does present the views evenly, because they want to promote a personal religion over study of Scripture through faith in Christ.
I’ll take that as a “yes.”
Reformed theology places Christ ahead of everything else...
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17."For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Just as Reformed theology acknowledges God is in control of all His creation, and recognizes the Holy Spirit moving through and active in every moment in the lives of believers.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
If you're interested...
Consider it preemptive.
Amen. Hope your Easter was glorious, LIR.
He is risen. It’s all true.
Placing any religion ahead of God places a believer out of fellowship with Him. Reformed theology is no exception. If the believer returns to God through faith in Christ and studies from their pastor-teacher, then many aspects of Reformed theology might be used by God the Holy Spirit to further sanctify the believer.
Where in the world would an uneducated buffoon come up with this phrase?
I disagree...I have a feeling I am alone at FR with this view but that's alright...And that view is Jesus preached 2 kingdoms...The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God...
Most everyone says they're the same...They're not...They're not even spelled the same...The kingdom of heaven is the physical kingdom with Jesus sitting on his throne...The kingdom of God is the spiritual kingdom, the kingdom 'within you', the salvific kingdom...
The Jews were not looking for a spiritual kingdom...They were looking for a physical kingdom with their Messiah as the King, sitting on David's throne
The physical kingdom requires good works for salvation as can be seen thru out the gospels...
The Jews rejected their Messiah and the kingdom of heaven, the physical kingdom was put on hold...
Jesus then provoked his chosen to jealousy and offered salvation to the Gentiles...Freely...By grace thru faith, without works...
When the times of the Gentiles are fullfilled, God will turn back to his chosen...They again will be offered salvation but with a combination of faith AND works...(Faith without works is dead, James chapter 2)...
And THAT physical kingdom will show up, immediately after the Tribulation and last for a thousand years before it moves on off into outer space...
Only according to the dispensational theory.
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