Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
We know you assert it. We deny you've proved it from the Bible.
There are prophetic events which must be fulfilled prior to the 2nd Advent, i.e. the Rapture, the Great Tribulation, the Apostasy, and removal of the Restrainer.
The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Great Tribulation happened in AD70.
The dispensationalist divides aand confuses the Scripture.
Do you have anything to offer about the pre-trib rapture? Blogger suggested we start this thread so as to not muddy up another one. No offense, but are you here to muddy the water?
Something many reformed believers fail to understand is that faith doesn’t require proof for it to be true.
So when did Christ reappear in the 2nd Advent, the same as when He ascended?
Of course if the Restrainer has already been removed, then who has provided a regenerated spirit for any of this generation?
Better regenerated than reformed.
Sort of difficult to muddy the confused eschatological waters presented by those who condemn pretrib premillenialism.
Careful. Zechariah11 might think you are copping an attitude.
The second advent is still in the future.
Better regenerated than reformed.
Copping an attitude?
If you want folks to believe dispensationalism is true you need to prove it from the Bible, not Scofield's or Ryrie's Notes.
Topcat, how do you look at Zechariah 12-14?
Dr E did not get this from us. We have stood against such a view numerous times. It doesn’t keep the charge from being levied though, along with any number of charges.
Best I’ve seen is some early quotes from folks like Scofield, that I chalk up to sloppy writing based upon other statements that the same men have made which contradict such a view.
Some dispensationalists (esp. the classic ones) have taught a difference between the "gospel of the kingdom" (Natt. 4:23) and what Paul calls "my gospel" (Rom. 16:25).
Do you think they are the same thing or different?
Short answer, talking all the prophetic symbolism into account it speaks of Christ's coming into the world to redeem His people and establish His kingdom. Both of these things He accomplished at His first coming, although there is an ongoing work of building the kingdom.
I believe it all fits with the teaching that the "law and prophets" all pointed to Christ. If you understand the apocalyptic language it makes sense, esp. in light of how the NT authors interpreted the prophets.
Is that what this two gospels stuff is all about????
Believing in more than one gospel (i.e., the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of grace, and the everlasting gospel) does not mean in any way shape or form that we believe that there is a different way of salvation between Jew and Gentile? It this what is being implied by you all towards the belief in various gospels?
I have a question from earlier on this thread and I don’t have an answer. If the first death is spiritual, what number is physical death, and if the first death is not spiritual, when did Adam die spiritually?
Topcat, here is where we have a rub. You have a tendency to too broadly symbolize what the text is saying to try to make it fit your soteriology. Zechariah 12-14 is very specific. It speaks of Jerusalem being encompassed about. It speaks of her spoil being divided in her midst. It also speaks of Jesus coming to fight for her and literally splitting the mount of olives. It is all set in Israel. And, I do not see how any of it was accomplished at His first coming. The vast majority of Jews are still lost and His kingdom was to be earthly in addition to Heavenly as we see in other Scriptures.
I believe the first and second deaths are physical and spiritual. Adam’s spiritual perfection was destroyed when he first sinned. This forever changed his “want to” and made him for all effects spiritually dead. We are born with this spiritual death attached. The only way that any of us is made alive is through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. That includes Adam. The wages of sin is death, and Adam started paying the moment he sinned. He passed down this debt to all of his progeny and all of us sin. Only Christ can nullify the spiritual death.
The first death needs to come before the second death. Are you saying that was spiritually dead without dying?
All of us are dead in our trespasses and sins before we are saved. That is spiritual death.
You can be born twice and die once. Or be born once and die twice.
The first death is physical death just as the first birth is physical birth.
The second birth is spiritual birth. For those who are spiritually born, the second death has no power over them.
Again, these are types rather than chronology. Those who are lost without Christ are currently spiritually dead, even though they may be physically alive.
All my life I have believed that Adam died spiritually when he sinned. I never questioned it until now. I don’t disagree with anything in your last post and I thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts.
As I look to the scripture for support, I am finding some support for the opposite. You say, “these are types rather than chronology, ” I will look to see if I can support that. I am sure that you realize that God’s types are crafted with precision and words like first and second cannot be taken lightly.
I am aware how many passages of scripture are involved here; I do not change my opinion quickly. When Adam sinned, it does not say the he died spiritually, rather it says that God made for them “coats of skins.” A sacrifice was made instead.
Seven
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