Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
Fairly easily solved.
Find out who has a prison/jail ministry in your area and ask to accompany them. It’s best to make a 4-6 month commitment. Not as critical in a transitory jail population as a prison population. But the guys need to feel that one is genuinely interested in their wellfare vs temporary sight-seeing.
God’s best to you and yours, Bro.
I notice you really didn’t deal with my main argument which was based on the undeniable parallel between the phrases used in Matt. 24 and Luke 21.
Why is that?
Christ’s words were pretty clear. His disciples got it, and fled Jerusalm when they saw the armies of Rome. They did’t sit around and argue that the “abomination of desolation” in their theology didn’t exactly fit with what they saw happening. You don’t need to reinterpret the verses to fit your futurist theology.
Please refer to my comments here
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." (Matt. 13:31,32)It is not the church that will Christianize the world, it is the gospel working by the power of the Holy Spirit under the authority of the reigning King, Jesus Christ.
Jesus has all authority in the universe, and He told His disciples to go out and exercise that authority on His behalf in the nations, discipling them by baptizing and teaching. IOW, of the work of the church. Too many churches believe their “Christianized” social programs (Christian Weight Watchers??) are the answer. They are not. It is the pure work of preaching the gospel and administering the sacraments in obedience to Christ. A work that must be untainted by things like human politics. The church is not an arm of the Republican party or conservative politics.
I do not believe the Bible paints a basically pessimistic picture of the present age in which we live. I believe, based entirely on the fact of Christ's present reign and His moving in history to bring glory to His name, that there is reason to be optimistic about that history.
I.E. leading up to Christ’s return the world will get better (or more Christian) etc?
There are many more Christians in the world today than 2000 years ago, so I think the answer is pretty obvious. True conversion means wanting to see Christ's commandments obeyed in our personal lives as well as in the societies in which we live. Again, that work is brought about by the Holy Spirit, not by mere human efforts.
The error I find most common among those who oppose an optimistic view is their misunderstanding of how this comes about. It is not by pure human effort. It is a divine work brought by the agency of Christ’s Holy Spirit to bring glory and honor to the triune God.
Oh, now I get it. This is your way of saying you believe you are spiritually superior to me because I don't accept your rapture theory. Makes sense now.
Thanks for the history lesson.
In AD70 Jerusalem was surrounded by the armies of Rome and her mercenaries and the temple was destroyed so that not one stone was left upon another. Jesus did not say in the Olivet Discourse that Jerusalem would be entirely destroyed so one one would live there.
Luke 21 was fulfilled in AD70. At least that's what His disciples believed since they were the ones who followed Christ's instruction and left town.
But of course. You obviously haven't advanced to a level 7 stage of Christian maturity yet and therefore don't posses that "special knowledge" necessary to understand and embrace pretrib rapture. ;-)
Have worse things happened to the Jews since AD 70?
I'm sure you are familiar with biblical comparative language.
Perhaps you’ve forgotten, so let me explain.
Many times in the Bible, God uses superlative language for effect to emphasize some great truth or event.
This is how one writer explains it:
Second, Jesus was using dramatic hyperbole or a proverbial method of speech taken directly from the Old Testament. Note the words spoken by Ezekiel regarding the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. "And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations" (Ezek. 5:9). Does this passage teach that Israel endured the worst judgment in human history in the 6th century B.C.? No. No one believes that the destruction wrought by the Babylonians was worse than that of the Romans in A.D. 70. The point is that the destruction will be severe, excruciating and unique. Similarly Daniel says, "by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:12). "And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time" (Dan. 12:1). "The language of v. 19 [i.e., Mk. 13:19 the parallel to Mt. 24:21], as also of Dan, 12:1, which it cites, uses traditional expressions to denote severe tribulation, not simply of Israel but of other people also." (65) For example, such language is even used to describe the anguish of the Egyptians after the tenth plague. "Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again" (Ex. 11:6; cf. 9:18; 10:14). "The cry of anguish sent up by this destruction will be unique, just as the disaster will be unique." (66)Morison writes regarding Matthew 24:21, "It is superlative in its relation both to the past and to the future. We might explain this superlative mode of representation by the freedom which is universally assumed and accorded in popular speech. Men speak unhesitantly, when referring to anything remarkable, of the 'highest,' the 'greatest,' the 'extremist.' It is an idiom of hyperbolism." (67)I posted these “words of men” with a bit of trepidation knowing you have used such comments against me in the past, and knowing also how you like to get side-tracked. Try to just focus on the substance of what the author is saying, and compare Scripture with Scripture. You might want to read the entire article.
You are asking very good questions. Now if you will listen carefully to the answers we might just get somewhere.
Wonderful survey.
Thanks.
I didn’t see it when I just scanned it. Do you have a short statistical table tabulating the results in numerical form in a compact way?
Might be interesting.
You seem to have a better handle on Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 9:24-27).Perhaps you can explain Daniel’s 69th and 70th week chronology and why he says in the middle of the 70th week, after the city and temple are destroyed in the 69th week, the sacrifices will cease and the abomination will be set up.
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.I’m just wondering, where exactly do you see the chronology that says the temple is destroyed in the 69th week and the abomination following later?
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
The plain reading is that everything in vv. 26 and 27 happens sometime after the first 69 weeks. The cutting off of Messiah, His making a covenant, the people of the prince destroying the temple, the end of sacrifice.
All we can say about specific timing with certainly from those two verses is that “in the middle of the (70th) week” The Messiah brings an end to sacrifice and offering.
All the other events are much less determined in the overall timeline of that last week in the prophecy.
It has nothing to do with meekness and humility and everthing to do with your obfuscation and obliqueness.
Blindly quoting a passage says nothing. Say what you mean plainly about the passage and move on.
Don’t talk down to me topcat.
Answer the question. Have worse things happened to the Jews since the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. For that matter, have worse things happened to the world.
As to your Babylonian example, read again what it says. It says that he is going to do something like he has never done and will never do again. It doesn’t say that it will be the worst thing that has ever happened. Likewise, the other examples mean what they say. At the time of Daniel’s writing nothing comparable in intensity had happened to Israel. Likewise, no cry had come from Egypt had come forth like the one with the death of the firstborn, nor will there ever come one from Egypt.
One can not simply take literal words and spiritualize them at whim. There has to be a textual clue or at least a common sense understanding that allows one to exegete a text in such a manner. For example, God will cover us with His wings does not mean that He is a big celestial chicken.
Christ said what he said. There is nothing in the text or in history to indicate that he didn’t mean what he said. If it were a 70 AD phenomenon, what sense would that have made to the Jews who watched the horror of Auschwitz? 70 AD was a time of trouble so great such as man had never seen nor ever shall see again?
The Romans destruction of Jerusalem was a horror. But, they had been through worse prior (look at how the Assyrians treated their captors for example) and have certainly been through worse sense.
The text does not fit your theology.
Uhhhhhh . . .
"Rome and her mercinaries"
Do not BEGIN TO EQUAL:
ZECH 14: 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Hmmmmm. All Nations. Must have been a Heavenly Typo. Obviously, God didn't properly consult with topcat54 and made a booboo. Should have said "only Rome and her mercinaries." Ahhh, well, Topcat54 is a gracious, generous, broad minded Christian. Perhaps he'll cut God some slack for the typo.
ZECH 14: 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
My Goodness, Lord, God! did you forget to consult with topcat54 AGAIN? Don't you know that canNOT POSSIBLY be scheduled in the future. It HAD to have happened back with Rome and her mercinaries and 70AD etc. Maybe in a SPIRITUAL sense. That's it. The Mt Of Olives cleaved into IN A SPIRITUAL SENSE. And all the littel rabbits and squirrels had to find new SPIRITUAL homes. That must be it.
ZECH: 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Now, Lord, Really! You REALLY MUST get this typo problem more in hand. Your escatology is beginning to look all screwy. Just ask topcat54. He'll set you straight. You gotta realize Lord that the "new" waters flowing from Jerusalem to the Mediteranian Sea were SYMBOLIC HYPERBOLIC, POETIC LICENSE SPIRITUAL WATERS. That's right. Nothing anyone could wash dishes or laundry with. Gotta keep these things straight, Lord. Maybe you need a new computer or keyboard, Lord. Perhaps topcat54 would loan you one of his. THEN EVEN YOU could have perfection from the gitgo.
14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Uhhhh, Lord, more typos. PLEASE, LORD, CONSULT WITH TOPCAT54. He's really eager to help set you straight!
I mean, clearly, Lord, we all know after sitting at the feet of the very learned, hermeneuterized topcat54 that all the gold and silver WAS ALREADY BROUGHT TO JERUSALEM way back in AD70 or some such. So, it must have been SPIRITUAL gold and silver. That's right. Nothing glittery or splashy. Just some odd sort of spiritual flash here and there--symbolic flashy splashy. Nothing special.
And all those countries of the whole world not having rain because they failed to bring tribute to Jerusalem . . . wellll, I don't think topcat54 has delivered an infallible encyclical from his solitary magicsterical yet but we are speculating that he will say that's the cause of the current drought. No, that can't be. He has EVERYTHING set in AD70. Was there a drought then? I forgot to check.
Sigh.
[Stepped on Lee's toes again.]
I've got this thing called "work" that I do, and Internet is being sucky where I'm at at this instant.
Unlike some people out there, I don't claim to have every prophetic jot and tittle worked out.
For one possible approach to Daniel 9, see The Covenant of the 70th Week by Meredith Kline, in which he discusses the Daniel 9 prophecy, and it's relation to what's going on in the first half of the chapter. Linked from Meredith Kline Online.
Related to this, I strongly recommend y-all might want to listen to G. K. Beale's discussion of Temple imagery in the Bible, from Eden to the New Jerusalem..
Personally, I’m not in a position to contradict God, and neither are you. All I can tell you is what is plainly written in the Bible for our instruction. The Jewish nation as a whole was cut off from the covenant in AD70. They were spiritually cast adrift from Almighty God. If you can image something worse than that, I guess offending God is an insignificant thing in your book.
Take it or leave it.
One can not simply take literal words and spiritualize them at whim.
As I made quite plain through the use of many OT and NT passages, I’m not the one being arbitrary or “spiritualizing at a whim”. There is no “whim” in anything I’ve written, as is apparently very obvious to you since you are moving further and further away from the text of Scripture and closer to your own theories.
You are very good at pragmatic explanations -- whatever makes sense to you -- but not very good at biblical ones.
I offered you multiple examples from the Bible of how the prophets used superlative language to emphasize the narrative. Jesus’ use of a similar phrase in Matthew 24 fits that pattern and would be perfectly understood by His hearers in that generation.
I offered the unmistakable evidence of the parallelism between Matthew 24:15,16 and Luke 21:20,21. Again, you refuse to accept it.
Christ said what he said.
Indeed, and thankfully those folks in that day understood His words far better than many people on this forum.
If that is talking down to you I'm sorry. If you don't want to let the Bible interpret itself, and prefer to rely of your notion of what's "literal" and what isn't that’s fine.
Have it your way.
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