Posted on 03/28/2007 4:32:53 AM PDT by MarkBsnr
HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, Pope Benedict XVI has said. Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, the Pope said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to "admit blame and promise to sin no more", they risked "eternal damnation - the inferno". Hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more". The Pope, who as cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was head of Catholic doctrine, noted that "forgiveness of sins" for those who repented was a cornerstone of Christian belief. He recalled that Jesus had forgiven the "woman taken in adultery" and prevented her from being stoned to death, observing: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." God had given men and women free will to choose whether "spontaneously to accept salvation...the Christian faith is not imposed on anyone, it is a gift, an offer to mankind". Vatican officials said the Pope - who is also the Bishop of Rome - had been speaking in "straightforward" language "like a parish priest". He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that hell is a "state of eternal separation from God", to be understood "symbolically rather than physically". Agostino Paravicini Bagliani, a church historian, said the Pope was "right to remind us that hell is not something to be put on one side" as an inconvenient or embarrassing aspect of belief. It was described by St Matthew as a place of "everlasting fire" (Matthew xxv, 41).
(Excerpt) Read more at news.com.au ...
God establishes what is just and what is unjust.
He, by definition, cannot act unjustly.
The essence of infernal punishment is separation from God. Separation from God is what the reprobate want. Effectively, it makes no sense to accuse God of injustice and cruelty for giving someone -- a rational being who has had adequate opportunity to make a reasoned choice -- what they want.
Should he attempt to force them into accepting what they have spent much of their lives trying to avoid and resist?
Kosta50 is not Catholic but Eastern Orthodox, therefore he's not exactly my compadre ... yet. :-)
I can't imagine why you would think heaven is not physical...The bible clearly says that our dead bodies will be physically resurrected (and changed)
Exactly. All orthodox Christians believe this has already happened with Jesus, and even if someone wants to quibble that Jesus is a Divine Person and is therefore a special case, Catholics and Orthodox believe that Mary is also physically in heaven body and soul. (And there's an argument that can be made for Enoch, Elijah, and Moses being there also.)
Heaven and hell is what the soul experiences in the presence of God. It is very easy to imagine that heaven and hell can be just a soul away.
"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]"[ EWTN ]
This statement is fully orthodox and in line with the teaching of the Eastern Church.
Can we say that God answers their prayers to be separated from Him?
Eternal punishment for avoiding and resisting your brand of salvation story is, in my opinion, just plain silliness and an insult to God. If that's where your faith is, fine. Whatever gets you thru the day.
Why would God force something on a person that's not truth?
Ageed. I just don't happen to believe what you believe He's established.
Don't believe NT writings are inspired.
If he only knew that salvation is in Christ Jesus.
I didn't know you had the ability to read his soul (sarcasm).
It isn't a matter of "avoiding and resisting [my] brand of salvation story". It's a matter of avoiding and resisting salvation per se, which is intimate union with God.
The reprobate don't want that. God gives them what they want.
You are familiar, aren't you, with the Jewish story/joke about the man who died? He was ushered by an angel into a room in heaven. The room was bare except for a table, at which were seated men studying Torah. The new arrival remarked to the angel, "This is it? This is heaven? If that's all there is, I'd rather be in hell." The angel replied, "Fine, then you're in hell."
Why would God force something on a person that's not truth?
God generally doesn't seem to force anything on anyone. He ultimately gives people what they want, whether or not it's really what he wants for them. He's almost unbelievably humble that way. I'm not sure I understand why.
Exactly right.
***If he only knew that salvation is in Christ Jesus.***
:) Jesus the Christ gave the good news to us. Now, we bring it to you. You may accept it, reject it, reject portions of it, bring your own interpretation to it, malign the messenger.
Matthew 5: 11-12. Insult away, if it so pleases you.
***HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful***
He’s got that right.
***including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”***
Promise to sin no more? That would be a lie and that very act will condemn you, according to the Pope. It contradicts Romans Chapter 7, aka “The Christian Life”.
Lovely statement of faith but I don't share it. Its the story of God you've come to accept. Others do not.
The reprobate don't want that. God gives them what they want.
I don't want that and I'm not reprobate. Its sad that you have to think of some others as reprobate because they don't share you beliefs.
You are familiar, aren't you, with the Jewish story/joke about the man who died? He was ushered by an angel into a room in heaven. The room was bare except for a table, at which were seated men studying Torah. The new arrival remarked to the angel, "This is it? This is heaven? If that's all there is, I'd rather be in hell." The angel replied, "Fine, then you're in hell."
Amusing, but not sure how this applies to the discussion.
Why would God force something on a person that's not truth?
He wouldn't. Did God force your beliefs on you or something?
God generally doesn't seem to force anything on anyone. He ultimately gives people what they want, whether or not it's really what he wants for them. He's almost unbelievably humble that way. I'm not sure I understand why.
Ya agreed. Don't know why he'd force that salvation story on anyone.
You don't want to go to heaven?
Amusing, but not sure how this applies to the discussion.
Then we aren't communicating very well.
Its sad that you have to think of some others as reprobate because they don't share you beliefs.
You seem to have confused me with a fundamentalist. People who are reprobate are reprobate because God judges them to be reprobate based on their deeds.
Whether they "share my beliefs" isn't really an issue. Right doctrine is a fine thing, but right doctrine by itself doesn't save anyone, and wrong doctrine by itself doesn't condemn anyone. It's what you do with what you know that matters.
AMEN!
We are not saved by our good works, our righteousness, our obedience, our repentance or our promises. We are saved by Christ's atonement alone. Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All of Him; none of us.
It is Christ's righteousness that saves us, and not our own.
Heaven? The dry bones come to life here. If God wants He'll bring my bones back to life. Entirely up to Him. When God created the earth He said it was good. I'm fine here.
You seem to have confused me with a fundamentalist. People who are reprobate are reprobate because God judges them to be reprobate based on their deeds.
We were discussing other things. Not sure why the word "reprobate" was brought up. I have no idea what you're motivation may have been.
Whether they "share my beliefs" isn't really an issue. Right doctrine is a fine thing, but right doctrine by itself doesn't save anyone, and wrong doctrine by itself doesn't condemn anyone. It's what you do with what you know that matters.
Whats your obsession with salvation? The life you're given here not good enough for ya?
As a matter of fact, no.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.