Posted on 03/27/2007 10:09:04 AM PDT by NYer
Q. In your response about whether a homosexual relative’s male partner should be included in family gatherings, you gave the same response we received from other trusted Catholic sources after much prayer. We have held our ground (which was extremely hard) and have become unpopular with that side of the family. Yet, our family is not exposed to this sinful situation because now only the relative, and not his partner, is invited to family gatherings.
Our question is, should we view differently a relative on the other side of the family who has lived with her boyfriend for four years (they have a 3 year old son)? Marriage could remedy their sinful situation. They have always attended family gatherings, and she writes Christmas notes and includes “family” photos. I can see a gradual desensitizing happening, and this is not what we want for our family. What are we to do at this point?
R. Morally speaking, the two situations are virtually the same, though one could argue that the same-sex relationship is worse since it involves acts contrary to nature and it cannot be remedied by marriage. Be that as it may, the heterosexual relative is living in objective mortal sin and to include her in family get-togethers not only signals approval of, or at least indifference to her immoral lifestyle but, as you said, it also desensitizes the moral consciences of those witnessing her actions. For example, how does one tell a teenage daughter or son not to live with another person outside of marriage when they see this relative doing just that and being treated no differently than a married person?
So, no, you should not view the two situations differently, but since you have already, at least publicly, given the appearance of accepting the sinful arrangement of the relative and her boyfriend, it will be, to use your words, “extremely hard” to speak out now against them. If you think you were unpopular with some of the family for your stance on the same-sex couple, wait ‘til you weigh in on the opposite-sex duo. We’re not saying that you shouldn’t be consistent in opposing sexual immorality; you should. But it will be more difficult this time because the latter situation is much more prevalent these days than the former situation, and because many of those who apparently see no moral problem with heterosexual violations, of the divine plan for life and love are still squeamish about accepting homosexual behavior among family members. In other words, while you might get some support for refusing to endorse the same-sex lifestyle, that support will be much less when you object to fornication, even though some family members may agree with you privately.
In making your decision, you will have to ask yourself, Do I want to be popular with family members or with Jesus? Recall that it was Jesus who said, “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:37-38). The Lord also warned: “Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this faithless and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels” (Mark 8:38).
These hard sayings of the Lord are not often quoted these days and, if they should appear in a Sunday Gospel, they are usually ignored or glossed over in the homily because the message might be disturbing to those who think that the strongest words Christ ever spoke were, “Love one another as I have loved you.”
Lest anyone think that we dispense this advice from an ivory tower, be it noted that we have for some years declined to invite a daughter’s live-in boyfriend to our home or to family get-togethers. The daughter is welcome as we try to persuade her to abandon her sinful lifestyle, but her male companion is not. Furthermore, we have in recent months declined to attend the weddings of first a nephew and then a niece because they were being married before a justice of the peace, which for baptized Catholics is a mortal sin.
Some family members have taken the same stance, but others have attended the weddings either because they did not want to disturb family harmony, because hey are not sensitive to the obligation of a Catholic to adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church, or because they do not recognize that their cooperation in this sinful event could be a source of scandal.
Are we being judgmental in taking this position? Yes, but not of the motives of the persons involved, which Jesus forbids and on which He alone will render judgment, but rather of their actions, which are contrary to what the Lord teaches. To suggest that one cannot take a stand against violations of the marriage laws of the Church is to say that one cannot take a stand against other moral evils of the time either, such as abortion, racism, and sexual abuse of children.
She is a modern day role model for many of us mothers :-) When her son had lost all of his fortune and had nothing left to lose, she sent him a holy card with the Hail Mary on it and told him to pray. He began praying it - once per day.
And Mary, as she always does, led him to her Son. One Hail Mary at a time, through his prayer and those of his mother. Now he shines like a beacon of light, emblazoned with love for our Lord and His Blessed Mother.
I would allow my daughter to visit, but not her paramour. She nearly ran off with someone in December but I put my foot down, reminded her (and the boyfriend) that we are Catholics and told them that the only way she was leaving home was if they were married through the Catholic Church. The boyfriend departed the following week .... without her.
Young adults today are exposed to the vilest forms of lifestyle via tv programs. It is projected as 'normal'. You and I recognize that marriage is between a man and a woman - a covenant celebrated in the eyes of God. Living together is convenient because it allows one to leave under any pretense and without any culpability. The States can't pass enough laws to ensure the protection of mother and/or children, fast enough. It's like playing catch up. Yet marriage, as it was instituted by God, constitutes a blessing on two individuals - a man and a woman - to leave their family and cling to each other and become one flesh. No state law, no matter how well intentioned, can ever rise to that level.
I wonder how these holier-than-thou prigs ascertain just which relatives are actually committing sexual sins. Do they make their relatives answer a questionnaire before inviting them to Thanksgiving dinner?
Dear Aunt Mary, Uncle Joe, Cousin Charles, and Grandpa,
A. Do you practice cunnilingus? Yes...No...Don't know.
B. Do you engage in anal sex? Yes...No...Don't know.
c. Do you and your unmarried partner have regular vaginal intercourse? Yes...No...Don't know...
If yes, how often? How many times a week? A month??
Etc.
How do these people know what sins their relatives are guilty of? Just because two people live together, it does not necessarily follow that they are having sexual relations of any sort.
Sometimes sin is in the dirty mind of the beholder. Sometimes the prurience of those judging is a greater sin.
Sometimes people are just jealous that their relatives may be leading a more joyful life than they are.
No offense, but I really want to know: What would attending this occasion be for everyone else?
"I can't figure out how these "families" think that the sin of someone else is somehow going to pervert the gathering. If that were the case, no one would have family gatherings ever!"
I can. I was cut off by my family (at my father's insistence) for the same sin-- but not because it was against God's will (my father recognizes no God but himself), but because it wasn't proper. What will the neighbors think? He claimed to be afraid that my behavior would lead the children astray, but I suspect that deep down, he was worried that the children would discover that the sinner was a kinder and better person than the righteous man.
Truth be told, though, it was a good thing. Without that separation from my family, I don't think that I would have ever found God. And, after I did, when I knew for sure that God was real and that Jesus died for my sins, my longtime sweetie and I got married. God has been sorting out my life and the lives of my beloved husband and children ever since. We are very blessed.
Sometimes I miss my mother, but she has done what she thinks was right, and biblical, and I don't fault her at all.
I think anyone seriously considering cutting off a family member in this way needs to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that there isn't even the tiniest element of pride in the decision. Or any other sin. Pray hard on it. I can't say that it would never be the right thing to do, but asking God what to do is always the right thing to do first.
"Do they make their relatives answer a questionnaire before inviting them to Thanksgiving dinner?"
I'm sorry but LOL!
"What would attending this occasion be for everyone else?"
A happy occasion that some missed out on.
Why just sexual sin? Shouldn't the questionnaire ask about other sins?
Do you report ALL income on your income taxes?
Do you give to Church EVERY week?
Have you ever downloaded a MP3 without paying for it?
Do you gossip?
I mean, sin is sin, right? If we're gonna shun folks for being less holy than thou, let's go all the way!
**I wonder how many families these days must face these hard decisions? A majority? **
I've had to face it.
Good point. Why don't they just plant a mobile confessional in the driveway, call Father Pat to sit inside and hear them out and give absolution, and then let them come in to dinner?
I'm sorry your skin is so thin.
This is my daughter's home ... just as much as it is mine. She is always welcome to spend the day, night, week, month or as much time as is required to get her life back in order.
It would break my heart to see any of my sons walk away from the Church and the commandments.
There's the difference. My daughter is well beyond that. My great consolation is in knowing that she has been Baptized, received First Eucharist and made Confirmation. She now teeters on the brink of being considered legally an adult, by society at large. She attends Mass 2x each year - Christmas and Easter. I console myself knowing that the 'seeds of faith' were planted early in her life and do my best to ensure that they are watered. Life is not perfect and God acts in His own timeframe. Through our Blessed Mother and St. Monica, I pray for my daughter daily, that the seeds will be watered and she will blossom into the person God inteds her to be. More than that, I cannot ask.
I would not pay lipservice to any sort of sinful lifestyle, but I could not forsake a prodigal son.
Nor should you forsake any of your sons. Our personal situations are quite different and these impact on our children. Tonight was Reconciliation. I sincerely pray from the depths of my soul, that my daughter will one day be reconciled with God , who entrusted her life to my safe keeping. She is an especially blessed gift as she is adopted. How many tears can a mother shed for her child!
Accidentally sent before I was finished, meant to also say...
"but this is a thread about people being banned from family gatherings due to their sexual activities, so my comment was hardly out of line."
Again I ask: as opposed to whom? Those other what?
In my sentence "Our daughter is gay", I used gay as an adjective, a predicative adjective to be exact. I did not say "is a gay", a noun, but instead "is gay" a predicative adjective. You might want to brush up on how to spot an adjective.
There is no such thing as gay, straight, homosexual, or heterosexual. There are humans who are inclined to various temptations (kleptomania, nymphomania, for example), and there are humans who commit sins by giving in to those temptations.
Since the late seventeenth century (200 years before the words homosexual and heterosexual were coined) the word gay has been used as meaning dissolute or licentious with no connotation as to being straight, homosexual, male or female. Just lacking moral restraint and indulging in sexual vices. The only thing the sodomites did was change gay from an adjective to a noun. It already was a word used for unrestrained immoral sexual activity.
And if there is no such thing as gay, straight, homosexual, or heterosexual, please explain your use of the word homosexual in your post #76. Yes, the post just before you decided to blast me for using a word that designates a sexual preference you yourself do the same thing. Is this a case of motes and beams or is it do as I say not as I do?
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