Posted on 03/23/2007 5:54:47 PM PDT by NYer
Bears repeating! God bless Benedict XVI! Cent' Anni!
I can hear the Melkites laughing all the way up here, NYer! :)
This may be the spot where your church started pulling away from the church Jesus founded...There is no record of the apostles suggesting appointing 'accredited' persons to replace them outside of the supposed writings of 'your' church fathers...
Could you show us in the scripture ( that we all agree is the word of God) where Jesus or the apostles ever taught the church could or would teach infallibly?
Sure, these verses(among many) illustrate that Christ would provide His people with a source of the truth of Revelation and this conduit would be His Church. Christ, being true God and true man knows us better than we could ever know our selves: He knew that we would need a guide, like the eunuch that Philip instructed, in our race. When God promises, He delivers, we may not like the way He delivers it, but it doesn't change the fact that He has and always will make good on His promises.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
John 13:16 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 14:16-17 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
There are many other verses, look HERE
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
We Christians have the very same Spirit in us that you claim your magisterium has...So you can't pull that one...
It certainly does...If it's not 'God-breathed', your stuff is no more legitimate than the writings of Joe Smith or the Jehovah Witnesses...
You guys make stuff up and claim God privately told you so...And what's really amazing is there are people that believe you...
your diagreement with verifiable history, i.e. the very thread you are reading as well as the church fathers, is nothing more than your being in denial since it conflicts with your man-made christian church based on luther and his deformation of the church, 1500 plus years after clement et al.....
Wrong again...Luther didn't invent Christianity...It was already there when he stumbled upon some of it...
There is also verifiable history that shows a lot of your history is bunk...How many of your church father's records are forgeries by your church???
Perhaps you missed this:
During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language 'Akeldama,' that is, Field of Blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms:'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.'And:'May another take his office.'Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection."So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place." Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.
(Acts 1:15-26)
Which "Christians"? The ones that go to your church, how about the ones down the block that don't believe that baptism is necessary, or how about the ones that do believe that baptism is not only not symbolic, but absolutely required. How about the Christians that believe in double predestination, or the believers in free will, or those who believe that you can lose salvation as opposed to the church next door that believe once saved always saved...the list goes on and on.
Christ delivered one truth, one faith, that faith, that truth is not found in it's fullness outside His Church.
Like I said, we may not like how He delivers on His promise, but that doesn't mean He hasn't delivered on the promise; a Father doesn't abandon His children to the winds of error.
Well, no, you see, that's the big difference between us and those other groups you mention.
We believe public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Since then, nobody is permitted to "make up" anything. God can't tell anybody anything that contradicts what he has already said. All we can do is hold fast to what the Apostles taught, and what the Church has always believed. Our understanding of that "deposit of faith" (a term that comes from St. Paul, BTW) can deepen, but it can't contradict what it previously knew.
Where you err is that you believe "what the Apostles taught and what the Church has always believed" is identical with your personal understanding of Scripture. That idea is something that was "made up" by Wycliffe and the Lollards in the 13th Century, not by the Apostles.
In your infallible judgement? Who appointed you to be Pope?
...There is no record of the apostles suggesting appointing 'accredited' persons to replace them outside of the supposed writings of 'your' church fathers
2 Tm 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Scripture will prove you wrong every time.
**Luther didn't invent Christianity...It was already there when he stumbled upon some of it...**
Good grief, Luther was a Catholic priest before he dissented.
Incidentally,you have never responded to my question to you with regards what in the world you think Christ was talking about in Rev.2 and 3,when He speaks about the works that many of the Churches did or failed to do. When you are unable to answer because you recognize that the scripture does not support your position,you just sail on to the next presumption.
We will never be one with God,as He desires, if we all don't earnestly and honestly pray that God guide us in our discernment.
Where can I get my magic sternum? :-)
**************
Amen. I've bookmarked this thread, NYer. Thanks!
Context, Context, Context...Your man Clement was suggesting that he received personal information from the apostles that he and other popes, cardinals, and bishops have the right and duty to select future bishops and popes...
And then you supply a piece of scripture that 'appears' to back up Clement's claim...
But you conveniently left out the qualifying scripture, didn't you...
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
This disqualifies anyone in your church that has been chosen to be a pope, cardinal, bishop or priest, including Clement...
Don't you find it odd that Clement was a pope in your religion but Timothy, a major bible figure was not???
Like I say, Clement seems to have 'turned a corner' in Christianity at about that time...He is not teaching what Jesus taught Paul who taught Timothy...Looks like he turned left while everyone else kept going straight...
After Luther 'dissented', did he still consider himself to have been a Christian befere his 'dissent'???
Huh??? I don't recollect that question...But since you've failed to answer most every question I put to you, I would say it's a small thing...
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