Contraception: Why It's Wrong

Or if the pregnancy, even without a threat to the mother's life, cannot end well for the child... as in the case of the mother with the incompetent cervix that Scotswife mentionned, or when one parent has a chromosomal translocation...tough.

I think the Church at least used to permit contraceptive pills to regulate women's irregular and unpredictable cycles - with the idea that a couple was entitled to predictability but should abstain at the times they would have if they were using NFP.... not sure that is still permitted.

Sometimes, the reasoning of the Church, as when it teaches that you may remove a tube with an ectopic pregnancy, but you may not remove the pregnancy from the tube, has me beating my head against the wall. I wonder, AFTER you have removed the tube, then can you remove the pregnancy from the tube, for the sake of science and advancing medical knowledge and seeing the baby and burying it?

It's late...

Mrs VS

And really - my own problem seems to be with a medical condition that could skew the mucous readings.

If you don't mind, I'd like to know more about your medical trouble, only with the aim to help if you want it. CCL has come into contact with so many issues like this over the years. They are truly amazing as a fertility knowledge warehouse. You can contact me privately about this issue or I can put you in contact with my wife. The great thing about her is she is not just a female NFP teacher with personal experience with extreme cycles; she has had cycle variances of 23 days followed by a cycle of 54 days. But, she is also an RN. There are many helps to most medical conditions involving mucus.

Regardless, God bless and good luck.

It appears to me that the alleged 3-5 day life of sperm is not accurate.

How so? This life of sperm in mucus is scientifically proved and backed up through the 1000s and 1000s of charts CCL has collected since 1969. Sperm life only impacts the potential for pregnancy before ovulation (the temperature shift). After ovulation, sperm life has no impact. Regardless, CCL teaches fertility in the presence of mucus before ovulation. Therefore, even if sperm were to live more than 5 days, the system removes this 3-5 estimate due to the presence of mucus. If mucus is present, sperm has the potential to live. As you probably already know, without mucus, sperm live about a half hour to a few hours. The vagina provides an acidic environment without excess mucus.

This puts the brakes one everything for 90-95% if the time if I'm going to wait the recommended 3 days after the temperature shift.

CCL, nor no one I am aware of teaches that you wait 3 days after the temperature shift for dry up. The temperature shift is the indication of ovulation. After ovulation the life of the sperm does not matter since it has no ovum to fertilize. Ovum life span is 1 day. NFP adds a day to that for assurance. If you are drying up before the shift, you will be good to go as soon as the temp shift is complete. What system of NFP did you learn? How did you learn it?

And with all this talk about temps, mucous, charts, and saying "no - not today AGAIN"...well....I'm burned out on it all, especially when I just pregnant anyway.

I understand being bummed out in the situation you are in. I'd really like to help. I'd really like to see the charts that resulted in pregnancy. One of the things we do as an NFP teaching couple is help former students look at a chart they have problems with. We could do easily do a CSI on the chart to see how the chart resulted in pregnancy. It would take us about 3 minutes. By the way, CCL collects charts like these as well in order to learn and see how the system is used and works. Do you have many charts like this? I'd like to see them all if possible.

"But if it is the state of pregnancy itself that is dangerous - if pregnancy would overtax a weak heart or kidneys - if it would with a very high likelihood cause hyperemesis gravidarum or severe early preeclampsia - tough, suck it up, offer it up. You may not remove the potential of pregnancy for the purpose of removing its potential danger."

I hadn't seen put that way before - but you are right.
"suck it up" does appear to be the message.

And if I can go back to my stomach stapling question....people get their stomachs stapled even when the stomach is functioning pefectly normally - no disease - no abnormality.

"Sometimes, the reasoning of the Church, as when it teaches that you may remove a tube with an ectopic pregnancy, but you may not remove the pregnancy from the tube, has me beating my head against the wall. I wonder, AFTER you have removed the tube, then can you remove the pregnancy from the tube, for the sake of science and advancing medical knowledge and seeing the baby and burying it?"

That one always left me scratching my head as well.

It seemed to be a matter of semantics to say "we're removing the bulging tube" to make it sound like it's not aborting, even though the bulge in the tube IS the baby itself.

Removing the "bulging" tube, vs. chemically flushing the embryo through the tube are both done for the same reason and produce the same result.
The notion that one procedure is acceptable and the other is "evil" doesn't make sense.

"Obesity is a disease. Pregnancy isn't."

hmmmm...it is debatable as to whether obesity is a "disease" or not.
For some it is a metabolic condition that can be treated with drugs that address metabolism.

For others it is a hormonal problem that can be addressed by addressing hormonal therapy.

For some it is a fatigue problem that hinders the ability to exercise - so treatment is focused on addressing the fatigue.

But what does stomach stapling address?
It would appear for those who have a condition that causes them to overeat? emotional reasons - addictive reasons - uncontrollable cravings.

so - the stomach itself is healthy and functioning normally, but the stomach is "mutilated" in order to address non-stomach related issues.

pregnancy can lead to other health problems as well.

"CCL, nor no one I am aware of teaches that you wait 3 days after the temperature shift for dry up. The temperature shift is the indication of ovulation. After ovulation the life of the sperm does not matter since it has no ovum to fertilize. Ovum life span is 1 day. NFP adds a day to that for assurance. If you are drying up before the shift, you will be good to go as soon as the temp shift is complete. What system of NFP did you learn? How did you learn it?"

I was loaned a CCL book once, but I believe I read the 3 day rule in the "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" by Toni Weschler.
I think the rationale was that temp can drop as hormones attempt to bring on ovulation, but sometimes the threshold is not met (stress, illness) and ovulation is postponed.
So...the idea is that if temp holds the pattern after 3 days it is safe to assume ovulation has occured and the egg is dead and gone.

"How so? This life of sperm in mucus is scientifically proved and backed up"

You can tell me that over and over.
I've read it over and over.
I am of the opinion that it can live at least up to 7 days.
No scientific study except personal experience - 3 times over.

"Do you have many charts like this? I'd like to see them all if possible."

I did. I threw them out in a bit of a hissy fit.
They said the same thing....ovulation anwhere from day 12-14.
sex 7 days prior.

The bartholin cyst problem is likely a factor as well, which means brakes would have to put on except maybe for a week (if I'm lucky) after ovulation.

Good grief, klossg - at least some women have cervical mucus for 8 days - I do. I've read what I consider to be reliable and informed testimony from women who had intercourse 7 days before ovulation and conceived. Maybe some men have long-lived sperm and if they marry women with long CM phases, presto.

Wikipedia's "Menstrual Cycle" entry has footnotes to 3 scientific papers saying sperm can live 8 days.

If you want to make real sure NFP doesn't lead to pregnancy, you have to skip the pre-ovulatory time altogether.

And what do you do when your body starts throwing out a double ovulation now and then?

From Wikipedia, Menstrual Cycle:
"Sperm survive inside a woman for 3 days on average, with survival time up to five days considered normal. A pregnancy resulting from sperm life of eight days has been documented.[7][8][9]

# ^ Ball M (1976). "A prospective field trial of the "ovulation method" of avoiding conception". Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol 6 (2): 63-6. PMID 985763.
# ^ Dr Evelyn Billings & Ann Westmore (2005). Trials of The Billings Ovulation Method. Retrieved on 2005-11-03.
# ^ Sinha G, Sinha A (1993). "A field trial of Billings' ovulation method for spacing and limitation of birth". J Indian Med Assoc 91 (10): 255-6. PMID 8308307. "

Mrs VS

You say that you threw them out. That is a bummer. True use of CCL NFP would be to me a miracle baby. I would loved to have seen them. Darn it! They said the same thing....ovulation anywhere from day 12-14. sex 7 days prior.

Do you remember if there was mucus present the day you had sex 7 days prior and was it based on internal mucus observation? If so, CCL's rules say you are fertile, regardless, and in phase 2. I cannot say that for sure, because I haven't seen the charts. Anyway, an NFP system worth its salt should consider you fertile if you are in Phase one (before ovulation) and there is any mucus present, regardless of how short or close your ovulation might occur. Phase one ends as soon as mucus is observed. And phase one sex should only be attempted during the menstrual period (or before day 6) - only after internal mucus observations that indicate a dry day. Else you are in phase two.

I understand your frustration but please do not crush the system if you may have not been properly trained or informed. If you could get those charts, I would help you lay the source of your pregnancies to rest. Since, this is impossible and unless you have conclusive evidence that it was the system itself that failed and not your use (say a CCL teacher (or equivalent) review of said charts), then please make less sweeping statements against NFP. NFP is not a terrible system and if taught properly and learned properly, will provide effectiveness above 99%.

I am not trying to talk you into anything like trying it again. No offense but I wouldn't use the NFP knowledge that you have demonstrated myself. If you do use NFP again, please take a class from CCL beforehand. This can be done on-line. Otherwise, do not use the same NFP system you used previously.

"From Wikipedia, Menstrual Cycle:
"Sperm survive inside a woman for 3 days on average, with survival time up to five days considered normal. A pregnancy resulting from sperm life of eight days has been documented.[7][8][9]

# ^ Ball M (1976). "A prospective field trial of the "ovulation method" of avoiding conception". Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol 6 (2): 63-6. PMID 985763.
# ^ Dr Evelyn Billings & Ann Westmore (2005). Trials of The Billings Ovulation Method. Retrieved on 2005-11-03.
# ^ Sinha G, Sinha A (1993). "A field trial of Billings' ovulation method for spacing and limitation of birth". J Indian Med Assoc 91 (10): 255-6. PMID 8308307. "

So I might not be stupid or crazy! What a relief.

"Do you remember if there was mucus present the day you had sex 7 days prior and was it based on internal mucus observation? If so, CCL's rules say you are fertile, regardless, and in phase 2. I cannot say that for sure, because I haven't seen the charts"

Charts showed I could have up to 4 days cm prior to ovulation.
However...there was "other" mucous occasionally with bartholin cyst sometimes leaking, sometimes bursting.
The midwife didn't think this was "fertile" mucous, but I wonder.

So I wasn't charting cyst mucous, and I suppose it is possible there were times when I thought I was only dealing with they cyst but it could have masked some cm.
Does that make sense?

"And phase one sex should only be attempted during the menstrual period (or before day 6) "

Last pregnancy....sex on day 6, ovulation on day 13.
Hence...the hissy fit.

"I understand your frustration but please do not crush the system if you may have not been properly trained or informed."

I'm not sure if I was or wasn't.
I'm not trying to crush NFP for others, but I think what I'm trying to say is that - is it possible there is not a one size fits all solution for all couples?

"Since, this is impossible and unless you have conclusive evidence that it was the system itself that failed and not your use (say a CCL teacher (or equivalent) review of said charts), then please make less sweeping statements against NFP"

first of all...it's a discussion forum, and I can state whatever opinion I please.
second of all...which statements did I make that you consider "sweeping"?

Third...when someone like me reads statements about how NFP is darn near foolproof, is a wonderful loving bonding experience with the spouse...well I can consider those to be sweeping statements.

"I am not trying to talk you into anything like trying it again. No offense but I wouldn't use the NFP knowledge that you have demonstrated myself. If you do use NFP again, please take a class from CCL beforehand. This can be done on-line. Otherwise, do not use the same NFP system you used previously."

Well, it's pretty simple.
Clearly any sex from day 1 to ovulation is out.

Did you find something wrong with the information about waiting 3 days post ovulation to be safe?
Is there something wrong with the information that temp can be suppressed without ovulation actually occurring?

So, if I were to use NFP again then it's "no, no, no" week after week and then "quick hurry up -now!" one week out of the month if I'm lucky.

I'm sure I have personal growth to undergo, but right now this is not seeming very loving or a bonding experience.

at least some women have cervical mucus for 8 days - I do. I've read what I consider to be reliable and informed testimony from women who had intercourse 7 days before ovulation and conceived.

You are absolutely right. I didn't say it was what got her pregnant. I am trying to understand the knowledge of NFP out there so that I can help. Don't get me wrong. I am not arguing against fertility if mucus is present. This sperm life tangent is not my point. I am sorry that I brought us down this path. The 5 day sperm life is at the low end of a bell curve from a screen (slide) that we use to teach in CCL. It does go beyond 5 days as I recall. CCL teaches phase 1 & phase 2: If mucus is present you are potentially fertile. Sorry for any confusion.

I know that many woman can have mucus patches longer than 7 days. My wife is one of them. CCL's rules are all based on the assumption of fertility if mucus is present, regardless of the life of the sperm. All CCL's rules would require abstinence if mucus is present during pre-ovulation.

And what do you do when your body starts throwing out a double ovulation now and then?

Double ovulation is assumed in the CCL system of rules.

Good grief

I am only trying to set the record straight on NFP information. I am not trying to convert everyone to using NFP when they do not want to. It is a personal choice. I can only provide info from what I know. Please feel free to slap me when I overstep that boundary.

Thanks for the reply.

Toni Weschler, MPH ... Temperature Shift Rule

The way you have written it, the rule is a temperature only rule. Correct? Maybe she suggests to combine this rule with one involving mucus? I would not trust an NFP system that promotes temperature only with only 3 days. It may not have enough data to prove it works. The only reason I say that is CCL has data back to the 60s that has them teaching a 4 day temp only rule. CCL has a temperature only rule but it is four days of shift, not three. It is four temperatures at least 0.4 Deg. F above the pre-shift six temperatures.

But, CCL does not normally rely just on temp but would cross check the three days of shifted temp with 3 or four days of mucus dry up. The assurance of temp and mucus for phase three transitions makes the Sympto-Thermal system 99% effective.

And unless I have it wrong, which I might well be, you were talking about phase two issues ... 7 days or more before ovulation occurred. And pre-ovulation phase two has nothing to do with temperature shifts, correct?

"The way you have written it, the rule is a temperature only rule. Correct?"

yes.

" Maybe she suggests to combine this rule with one involving mucus? "

yes, and cervical observation as well.
She suggested combining all three to confirm each other as illness could skew temp readings - and some medicines can skew mucous readings.

"The assurance of temp and mucus for phase three transitions makes the Sympto-Thermal system 99% effective."

I know I know (sigh)

"And unless I have it wrong, which I might well be, you were talking about phase two issues ... 7 days or more before ovulation occurred."

That appears to be the case.
As I read more of what you post I'm wondering if part of the problem is with trying to distinguish one kind of mucous from another.
For ex...in the Weschler book she describes cervical mucous vs. glandular mucous and claims that when only glandular mucous is present you can consider yourself "dry"
She does recommend internal observation. (yuck...)

"And pre-ovulation phase two has nothing to do with temperature shifts, correct?"

correct.

So I wasn't charting cyst mucous, and I suppose it is possible there were times when I thought I was only dealing with they cyst but it could have masked some cm. Does that make sense?

Yes. You have a bummer of a deal there. CCL will know exactly how to answer this and help you out so that you can minimize your fertile time. I would contact CCL at http://ccli.org/aboutccl/contactus.php. They will help you and their expertise is unsurpassed. The fertile time may not be as long as you would hope but they will give you the longest possible based on your requirements.

Clearly any sex from day 1 to ovulation is out.

This is not necessarily correct. If avoiding pregnancy, you can have sex on any dry day before mucus begins. Unless you are accomplished at telling seminal residue from CM, you should not have sex on consecutive days during phase one. Also, you should be taking internal mucus observations. External can be one day late in showing the presence of mucus.

So, if I were to use NFP again then it's "no, no, no" week after week and then "quick hurry up -now!" one week out of the month if I'm lucky.

I have faced this "lucky" time with my wife. No one has said that NFP is as "free" as contraception chemicals/hormones/barriers. I have thought many times how much easier it would be if everyone of my wife's cycles was the same or if the system was easier or gave us a two day free zone in the middle of the fertile time, etc ... It is rough at times. Sometimes doing what is right leads to frustration. I fail and get ticked too. Things could always be better.

Phase one can be navigated. CCL has for rules that make it 99%+ effective. Three of them are based on your previous cycles. The last is called Dry Days Only. It trumps all the other rules. If there is mucus present, internally or externally, then you are in phase 2.

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