Book's Sequel Cites Explicit Evidence Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

Christian News Wire ^ | Feb. 22, 2007 | Martha Gonzalez

[Alex Murphy]

MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 22 /Christian Newswire/ -- The sequel to a book written by a former Los Angeles-based radio and television talk show host, which challenges the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven, is now available to the public. Published by Author House, Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation is the sequel to The End Times Passover, written by Joe Ortiz.

"No Christian wants to imagine he or she will be persecuted, but it will happen" stated Ortiz, who spent over 20 years researching and writing his books. Ortiz stated he provides unequivocal Bible evidence that challenges the belief system that Christians will escape to Heaven while unbelievers will be Left Behind to experience Armageddon. "Unfortunately, a large majority of evangelicals do not believe they will go through any tribulation, believing instead that God will provide them an escape through what they call the Rapture."

Ortiz said he realizes his is a minority point of view and that most Christians believe in the books written by authors who promote the Left Behind doctrine (such as John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, et al); but he's willing to debate those authors who promote a Premillennial, Dispensational doctrine to determine what is myth or what is true fact.

Ortiz said he wrote the books because he is concerned for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven. He said his books not only provide Bible evidence to support his contentions, and clearly explain why they will be persecuted, but feels it's his duty to reach out to fellow Christians and alert them to be prepared for the eventuality of great tribulation.

The author is a former award-winning radio/television talk show host and newspaper columnist. A 23 year veteran broadcaster, Joe Ortiz has the distinction of being the first Mexican American to conduct a general topics talk show on an English-language commercial radio station. He began his broadcasting career at KABC-AM in Los Angeles in 1971. He is semi-retired but still writes for local and national periodicals and hosts three blogs.

[Seven_0]

Instead of lobbing grenades of scripture against it please read the words of Jesus Himself where He told His disciples and us of what to expect in the end of days, and that was not that we would fly away.

Matthew 24 - Mark 13 - Luke 21

There are some people that read these three chapters carelessly and think that they contain a reference to the rapture. The “one taken and the other left,” in Matt 24:41,42 refers to a selective judgment like the one in days of Noah. (Vs 37) Here, the evil ones that “Know not,” are taken to judgment, and the good are left behind.

Contrast this to Revelation 14:16-19, where the good ones are taken and the evil ones are left behind. Where do you put these two events on a timeline?

[John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?]

the last 3.5 years does have God's wrath in them. As a matter of fact the bible does not even mention a 7 year time period of tribulation. Revelation deals with 3.5 years. It is called the time of great tribulations. It's not a time of God's wrath.

POST TRIB, PRE WRATH, NO RAPTURE!

[John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?]

"the last 3.5 years does have God's wrath in them." THIS SHOULD OF READ does not have God's wrath in them.

[Old_Mil]

I think that in the end, the great value of the pre-trib movement will have been the debunking of amillenialism and the restoration of the Apocalypse of St. John as a legitimate book for literal study.

Like some of the posters here I believe in a single post-tribulational, pre-millenium coming of Christ.

If you tie the description in Matthew to the one posted from the Apocalypse, they appear to describe the same event.

[Ping-Pong]

Thank you for your question.

"The “one taken and the other left,” in Matt 24:41,42
refers to a selective judgment like the one in days of
Noah. (Vs 37) Here, the evil ones that “Know not,” are
taken to judgment, and the good are left behind."

I have heard a preacher give a sermon on this subject, saying, "how wonderful it will be to be taken first". As you see - that is not a good thing.

The chapter is Jesus telling us about what happens in end times when Satan comes first. TAKEN is defined in Strong's #3880 - This definition is used ONLY in this verse and nowhere else in the Bible. The following is that description and related Strong's numbers:

To get hold of, seize, remove, opposed to, against,
contrary to, misreckon, delude, beguile, deceive,
paralyzaed or enfeebled, taken with (as palsy)

That doesn't sound like anything I want to be part of or that would be in God's plan for His children. It sounds like "taken" here is to be conned. So, as you have stated, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE RAPTURE, but is about the anti-christ taking you first when you should have waited for the true Christ, as He foretold us.

---

"Contrast this to Revelation 14:16-19, where the good
ones are taken and the evil ones are left behind. Where
do you put these two events on a timeline?"

Matthew 24: when some are taken is at the 6th trump, when Satan comes, preceeding the true Christ while Revelation 14:16-19 is the 7th trump when our true Christ comes.

[ichabod1]

I think the rapture has already happened and we're what's left.

[Seven_0]

Matthew 24: when some are taken is at the 6th trump,

The 6th trump, only one third are killed. Matthew 24:37-39, compares the event to the days of Noah where all of the evil are taken away. Shall we distinguish between "some" and "all?"

[Quix]

More power to you but I'm still amazed at folks who seem to have it all figured out.

I sure don't.

[Quix]

I can't imagine the last 3.5 years NOT being called God's Wrath. That much seems clear to me while a lot else does not.

[John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?]

please give chapter and verse saying that the great tribulation period (last 3.5 years)is the work of God.

The wrath of God is poured out upon the ungodly at the beginning of that great and terrible day of the Lord (2nd and only coming of the Lord).

the Lord has promised us all tribulation but not His wrath. He has prayed that we are able to perceiver through the tribulation not to be taken out of it.

[Quix]

Will try.

keyboard prbs again

[Ping-Pong]

Hi Quix - I don't think anyone has it all figured out. To me, that is what is so fascinating about the Bible. There is so much to learn and it seems to expand each time it's read enabling you to get a new and/or deeper meaning.

I do know that one of the certain truths is His warning throughout the Bible to not follow Satan. That warning is given by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, where He tells us what to expect in the end of days. He also tells us what is expected of us and that is to know that Satan comes first, pretending to be Christ and we are to remain, not be taken and wait for the true Christ.

That is all that dreaded 666 number means. Satan comes first, at the 6th trump, 6th seal and 6th vial. It's a time frame God gives us to prepare for. Jesus comes after that, at the 7th and last trump.

[Ping-Pong]

"The 6th trump, only one third are killed. Matthew 24:37-
39, compares the event to the days of Noah where all of
the evil are taken away. Shall we distinguish
between "some" and "all?"

I'm not certain of your question. You're probably going much deeper than I can but I would love to know exactly what you mean. "shall we distinguish between some and all"?

[Scotswife]

I agree BigFinn.
There isn't a sneaky second coming and then a final third coming.
There is just the second coming complete with final judgement.

[Quix]

Good points.

Thanks.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

God will do as he see fits and has planned no matter what our interpretation, blessed be His holy name. My job is to be salt and light and be ready.

I expect persecution, though. It is growing across the world even as we speak.

[Ping-Pong]

John, I'm following your dialogue with Quix. I agree with you on the wrath being poured on the ungodly at His 2nd, and only coming. He loves those that follow Him.

Something else, that you and Quix might be interested in about the tribulation is the timing.

There are two tribulations, just as there are two Christs, one fake and one true. There were two trees in the Garden, Tree of Life and tree of good and evil, there are two rocks, Satan, King of Tyrus and our Rock Jesus, there are two vines, there are two morning stars - Lucifer and Christ, etc.

The first tribulation is that of Satan and it begins at the 6th trump. That is the one Christians need to be concerned about. The tribulation of Christ will probably last just a few minutes and we're all in our spirit bodies but regardless of how long - it will not hurt us.

Satan's tribulation however is coming to deceive Christians but it only lasts 5 months - not 3 1/2 years. At least this is what I firmly believe scripture tells us.

Matthew 24:22.."And except those days should be SHORTENED, there would be no flesh saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED".

This is again stated in Mark 13:20. You find the time it was shortened to in Rev. 9:5 and 9:10:

9:5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented FIVE MONTHS; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion when he striketh a man.
9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt man FIVE MONTHS.

That 5 month time was also the time Noah endured - our example for coming through it.

[Seven_0]

I'm not certain of your question. You're probably going much deeper than I can but I would love to know exactly what you mean. "shall we distinguish between some and all"?

I believe that scripture is not careless when it comes to details. It is able to foresee the things that God will do. (Gal 3:8)

"The “one taken and the other left,” in Matt. 24:41,42 is referenced to the days of Noah, (Vs.37) where all of the evil ones, that know not, are taken. You say that there is a connection to the sixth trumpet in Revelation 9, where some are killed.(not taken) These two events are sufficiently different to raise a flag.

Consider that if God set up the days of Noah as a metaphor, then we can hold the metaphor to a standard of perfection, simply because it is from God. The fact that they were eating , drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and not worried about the impending judgment is hard to parallel what the attitude will be by the time we arrive at the sixth trumpet.

Matthew 24: when some are taken is at the 6th trump, when Satan comes

Satan has not left, how can he come back?

Seven

[Ping-Pong]

Thank you for clarification. My understanding is as follows:

"Satan has not left, how can he come back? "

Ping - My understanding is Satan is in heaven, held by Michael, to be released at the 6th trump. His spirit however is free to roam earth. As God is fair and His Holy Spirit is with us, God allows Satan's evil spirit too.


"I believe that scripture is not careless when it comes
to details. It is able to foresee the things that God
will do. (Gal 3:8) "

Ping - I agree completely. The details answer many questions but also raise others. That's why it is a never ending quest. If it were easy to comprehend I don't think it would hold the fascination. When you see the simplicity and complexity you realize it is Divinely inspired and the Word is opened to you on different levels.



"The fact that they were eating , drinking, marrying and
giving in marriage and not worried about the impending
judgment is hard to parallel what the attitude will be
by the time we arrive at the sixth trumpet. "


Ping - I don't think it is a difficult parallel at all. If
mankind believes they are living the life they should they aren't worried. Some don't believe in God and think there is nothing after this life. Others follow Mohammed, Buddah, etc. so don't feel God's wrath will effect them.

Then you have Christians that love God (we are the ones Satan will come after). If we are misled by traditions of men, false preachers, teachers, etc. we can easily fall into his trap of deceit. Christ warned us of this with, "Take heed and follow no man". When he comes pretending to be Christ many Christians will follow him without realizing who he really is. That will be at the 6th trump. At the 7th, when they see the true Christ they will wish for mountains to fall on them. Then they know they have been misled.

So, to me, the attitude they have is that they are doing what God wishes in waiting for the rapture, when in actuality Jesus warned them of what would be required of them in the Olivet prophecy.

[Seven_0]

When he comes pretending to be Christ many Christians will follow him without realizing who he really is. That will be at the 6th trump. At the 7th, when they see the true Christ they will wish for mountains to fall on them. Then they know they have been misled.

Here you are confusing the 7th trumpet with something that happens at the 6th seal. These people want to die in order to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. This does not describe the attitude of the people in the days of Noah.