Book's Sequel Cites Explicit Evidence Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

Christian News Wire ^ | Feb. 22, 2007 | Martha Gonzalez

[Alex Murphy]

MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 22 /Christian Newswire/ -- The sequel to a book written by a former Los Angeles-based radio and television talk show host, which challenges the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven, is now available to the public. Published by Author House, Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation is the sequel to The End Times Passover, written by Joe Ortiz.

"No Christian wants to imagine he or she will be persecuted, but it will happen" stated Ortiz, who spent over 20 years researching and writing his books. Ortiz stated he provides unequivocal Bible evidence that challenges the belief system that Christians will escape to Heaven while unbelievers will be Left Behind to experience Armageddon. "Unfortunately, a large majority of evangelicals do not believe they will go through any tribulation, believing instead that God will provide them an escape through what they call the Rapture."

Ortiz said he realizes his is a minority point of view and that most Christians believe in the books written by authors who promote the Left Behind doctrine (such as John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, et al); but he's willing to debate those authors who promote a Premillennial, Dispensational doctrine to determine what is myth or what is true fact.

Ortiz said he wrote the books because he is concerned for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven. He said his books not only provide Bible evidence to support his contentions, and clearly explain why they will be persecuted, but feels it's his duty to reach out to fellow Christians and alert them to be prepared for the eventuality of great tribulation.

The author is a former award-winning radio/television talk show host and newspaper columnist. A 23 year veteran broadcaster, Joe Ortiz has the distinction of being the first Mexican American to conduct a general topics talk show on an English-language commercial radio station. He began his broadcasting career at KABC-AM in Los Angeles in 1971. He is semi-retired but still writes for local and national periodicals and hosts three blogs.

[Ping-Pong]

Seven - "I believe that the elect are perfect. They are born perfect in Christ. The old man continues to sin."

Ping - Seven no one is perfect, except Christ. We may all try but there is no way we can be. We are flesh and even if it is sinning with a thought it is still sin.

A case in point would be that terrible degenerate that killed the young girl by burying her alive in his back yard. The jury just found him guilty (what a surprise for today's jurors) and sentenced him to death. We are supposed to forgive others if we are to receive forgiveness. Seven, it is easy for me to forgive almost anything but I don't think I could EVER forgive him. I don't see how anyone could, no matter how good they were.
Truly,in my heart and mind I don't see how even Jesus could. It didn't happen to my family and I still don't forgive him and don't think much of someone that could.

Is anyone, elect or not, on earth today, that could possible forgive him? I still hold that no one is perfect while in the flesh.

Back to rapture now. Seven, how do you picture it as happening? You don't have to quote scripture if you don't want to, I just want to understand how you believe it will happen.

[Seven_0]

Seven no one is perfect, except Christ. We may all try but there is no way we can be. We are flesh and even if it is sinning with a thought it is still sin.

Anyone who is born in Christ is perfect. We have two natures; Paul said “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.” It is the inward man, created in Christ Jesus, that I speak of as being perfect, the old man can never delight in the law of God.

A case in point would be that terrible degenerate that killed the young girl…

If we accuse someone of being a “terrible degenerate,” we must take that label for ourselves. I realize that I must plead guilty to anything that I accuse you of doing.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

I have been down that road before and I have found that the law is a harsh taskmaster. We cannot stand under its weight.

Back to rapture now. Seven, how do you picture it as happening? You don't have to quote scripture if you don't want to, I just want to understand how you believe it will happen.

I could speculate with everyone else, but I really don’t know. I think we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and it will be quick, in the twinkling of the eye.

Let me just say here that I don’t think that the rapture is imminent. I can see both sides of most arguments on this subject, but for me the tiebreaker is Israel. I have watched Israel for over 40 years and my expectations have been met and surpassed all of that time. I expect all nations to turn against Israel. This could happen quickly, but so far is has been happening slowly, and I think it will continue at the same pace. Keep watching.

We differ on many points of doctrine. I would guess that you would say that Christ is the “pearl of great price.”

Seven

[Ping-Pong]

Seven - "Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."

Ping - It is very difficult, is it not? I have had such a wonderful life that the little things that have happened over the years are nothing - I don't even need to think about forgiving, it's just done. But, could I forgive one that did that to a child of mine? So, it is just one of the sins I ask forgiveness for each night - I don't specify them I just lump that one in with the others I really try to work on.

Rapture - Seven, if it happens like you believe it will, "gone in the twinkling of an eye" then none of us have any worries. But, if someone comes, saying he is Christ, looks and acts like Christ, performing miracles, being peaceful and prosperous - saying gather together because I'm going to rapture you out of here - if someone does that and you can pinch yourself and feel it (still in a flesh body) - DO NOT GO.

Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; BELIEVE IT NOT.


Seven - I have watched Israel for over 40 years and my expectations have been met and surpassed all of that time.

Ping - I agree, Jerusalem is our barometer for end times.

Seven - I would guess that you would say that Christ is the “pearl of great price.”


Ping - You're being cryptic again so you really made me LOOK at this verse. Is the pearl one of us sinners that Christ paid the price for?

I'll keep watching.......Ping

[Seven_0]

Ping - You're being cryptic again so you really made me LOOK at this verse. Is the pearl one of us sinners that Christ paid the price for?

Astute observation. Let me add some details from nature. I will leave it to you to decide if there is meaning and what that meaning might be.

The pearl is the only living Gem. It comes up out of the sea (nations) as opposed to the treasure, which comes out of the earth. (Israel) the pearl is formed when a grain of sand (Abraham’s seed) gets inside the shell of the sea creature and irritates it, causing layer upon layer of nacre or “mother of pearl” to be deposited on the grain of sand and of course the value increases over time. These things take time.

Here is another question for you. Can you see the rapture in Ruth 3:14?

[Ping-Pong]

Seven - "The pearl is the only living Gem."

I had not thought of that. Yes, I agree with your meaning. Thank you for getting me to look deeper.

Seven - "Can you see the rapture in Ruth 3:14?"

We see scripture through different eyes, different beliefs. I don't see rapture here but I do see this:

Ruth should be read as being symbolic of us, sinners, weak and condemned. Boaz is the kinsman redeemer - Jesus. Ruth will inherite the land of Boaz = eternal life.

In Ruth 3:14 - I believe is protecting her reputation from gossipers and doesn't refer to rapture.
18. Insert modern thought of end times; a fake redeemer will come and ask you to bring kin to him at a big church meeting - to rapture you away.

Chapter 4: The other kinsman here is symbolic of the fake redeemer for us - Satan. There is a time coming when another will show that he wants to redeem people and many will whore after him. You must know the right one, the Redeemer.

Seven, I love your interpretation of the Pearl. It's one I will share with others.

....Ping

[Seven_0]

Ruth should be read as being symbolic of us, sinners, weak and condemned. Boaz is the kinsman redeemer - Jesus. Ruth will inherite the land of Boaz = eternal life.

Good on the symbols, just missed a few. What is it about a woman being on the threshing floor that they decided to keep secret? This is where they separate the wheat from the chaff. This brings to mind the harvest.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Chapter 4: The other kinsman here is symbolic of the fake redeemer for us - Satan.

I would say that the nearer kinsman is the law, which is unable to redeem us.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

I found a few old letters that illustrate types. I will put them in separate posts, because I don't have time to edit them right now. I hope you enjoy.

Seven

[Seven_0]

The next subject I would like to write about is Light.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

I Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

I had a professor in college, who did his Doctorate in the “Theory of Relativity.” His thesis became one of our textbooks. It is fascinating, the study light, remembering that God is light. At the time, I hadn’t made the connection, but, now, many years later, I think that the things that he taught were profound in their application to Scripture.

Look at the electromagnetic spectrum.

http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/light/ems-frames.html

There is a narrow band in the middle, separating the two sides. This corresponds to Christ, the second person of the trinity, that part of God, which we can see. It divides the spectrum into a trinity. Each section has more divisions, which I will not comment on now, except to say that the infrared side (heat and power) is the father, and the ultraviolet (manifestation of florescence) is the spirit.

The fact that the speed of light is constant, gives us the basis for out entire system of measurement. It may not be obvious at first, but there is an apparent contradiction between saying that the speed of light is constant, and distance = velocity x time. Trying to reconcile this is how Einstein came up with his theory of relativity. Is there any wonder that there is confusion trying to understand the trinity? If you accept the theory, then mass, distance and time all become dependent on light.

There are many more details that are fascinating, I will go deeper if you would like, but for now, maybe this will catch your interest.

You can get to know a lot about a person by studying their work. God has given us so much of himself in both his word and his work. Please don’t think that I am taking away from scripture by looking at creation. I believe that scripture points us in that direction. Consider, if you accept that studying God’s work is profitable, then you will realize that there is a substantial increase in our spiritual food. It seems like every time I pick up God’s book, it is bigger.

I will write another letter on Vision. Think about it
Seven

[Seven_0]

Vision :

The eyes are so closely associated with witness that an eyewitness may be simply, a witness.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

The number two in scripture speaks often of competent testimony. It is in fact, the first division in scripture, dividing the Bible into two testaments (witnesses).

The fact that each of the eyes tells a different story to the brain is one way that we are able to measure depth. We are able to perceive minute differences in the two pictures, and from there we can discern which things are closer and which are farther away. Movement would be another way. When we move we can have good depth perception, even with just one eye, but binocular vision gives us some special abilities.

You are aware of these things already, even if you have not paid attention to the details. If you have seen a 3D movie or T2 at Universal Studios or looked at View Master Slides, then you have some experience with it. Modern technology, using polarized light can, with special glasses, make each eye see different pictures. By changing the points of view for each eye, the brain is tricked into calculating distances that are not true.

Even though we perceive distances that are false, we still recognize the tricks. We learn to trust our eyes and to perceive depth quite naturally, no one tells us how, we just do it.

So it is with our spiritual eyes, Heb 5:14 “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” We learn to discern good and evil with practice.

Notice that two points of view are useful for depth perception. You will see things in scripture that I will miss and vise versa. If I look into my neighbor’s yard, I will see things that my wife cannot see because I am taller. If she wants to see what I see, she could stand on something. It is not always possible to have the same point of view, for instance, an old person can see things that a young person cannot. When this happens, we need to consider a reliability factor, even our eyes, though completely reliable, can give information that is difficult to interpret. My rule is: God’s word-most reliable, all other sources-less reliable. We need to remember where our information comes from. Hope you don’t mind, I am switching between the natural and the spiritual.

I enjoy playing with stereo photography. You can take a picture of something and move over a few feet and take another picture. When properly viewed, it is quite impressive. (Slides work best). I have one example where a bird flew into one of the pictures. It draws your attention immediately, something is wrong. You would not have noticed the bird except it is missing from one of the pictures.

It is called hyper-stereo when the points of view are farther apart than your eyes. The farther apart the points of view, the more pronounced the depth of field.

Now consider the two different views that we have in scripture, the Old Testament, natural man, the New Testament, spiritual man.(always quick to point out the order here) The greater the diversity of the points of view, the greater the depth perception. And it is not just the different perspectives that we get from the various scriptures that we have, but each of us brings our own unique perspective. Thus we have a need for each other, to cover our blind spots. Speaking of blind spots, why do you suppose God put blind spots in our field of vision?

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Again I stress, you can learn a lot about a person by looking at their work. We can find meaning in everything that God does. What can we do with it all? Well, getting to know Christ is really what we are to be about. He did tell us to “labour.” I tell you what I see. You have spiritual eyes, take a look and tell me what you see. We will put our views together, our spiritual depth perception and understanding will continually increase.

We don’t have to go very far to see the symbols that God has made. They are everywhere and each one tells us something about the creator. I imagine God watching with a smile when he made two kittens to romp around in the kitchen, to the delight of my children, some time ago. This is the God we serve. I can’t wait to meet him face to face.

Always proceed with caution; whenever we get close to the truth (Christ), Satan will try to interfere. I think of Mary, who probably knew Jesus better than anyone, at least in the natural world. We have little of her testimony, but we are told that she took time to ponder. Sometimes it can be overwhelming.

It occurred to me while writing this letter, after having written on the subject of light, last time, that a study on polarized light would be in order. I will put it on my list.

Seven

[Ping-Pong]

I started reading this, your last post, first. But before I comment on it I just have to tell you about this day. I don't know what part of the country you live in but here, Mobile, Alabama, SPRING HAS SPRUNG. The Azaleas, dogwoods, red buds, bridal wreath and even the Iris in our pond are in full bloom, or almost there. We still have camellias blooming, the grass has turned green, the sun is shining, birds are everywhere, the sky is incredibly blue, the spring green has popped out on our huge beech trees and it is all so beautiful. What a day to be alive and part of this wonderful world God has given us.


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html

I didn't know about the blind spot but the tests certainly proved it - I'll let my grandchildren try it. (It's always fun to show them something new - I like them to think Nana is kind of neat)

Yes, I agree with the two witnesses being necessary in scripture for "competant testimony" so it stands to reason that different perspective from another point of view could make our understanding fuller. Both to cover our "blind spots" and just that it is interesting to see how others think. Why did God give us blind spots? Physically, I don't know but spiritually, maybe to show we can't do everything on our own. There are always hidden events but He can see around the corner and knows what is best. We have to let Him have control and always pray in His will.

I like your Heb.5:14 quote. I think the reason I stopped going to church a long time ago was that I never was taught meat, just milk. To grow you need the meat.

Seven - "This is the God we serve. I can’t wait to meet him face to face."

Ping - Amen

[Ping-Pong]

Seven - "Consider, if you accept that studying God’s work is profitable, then you will realize that there is a substantial increase in our spiritual food. It seems like every time I pick up God’s book, it is bigger."

Ping - Of course studying God's work is profitable. Both His creation, which takes your breath away and His Word. The more I study the more I see. The same verse grows, as you say, becomes bigger. It truly is the living Word. The more you see it, as a whole, the more you see His Divine inspiration in it.

Seven - God is light

Ping - I believe that in Gen. 1:2 "darkness was upon the face of the deep", is Satan. There was an age before our present age and in it Satan fell, taking 1/3 of God's children with him. God destroyed that age and then, in the
last 1/2 of that 2nd verse, the "Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (3) And God said, "Let there be light:" and there was light. Our present age began.

That "light" was Christ (1John 1:5).

I will "think about it"......Ping

[Ping-Pong]

What is it about a woman being on the threshing floor that they decided to keep secret? This is where they separate the wheat from the chaff. This brings to mind the harvest. I just realized I missed this one. I know that the wheat will be separated from the chaff at harvest (goats from sheep, etc.)but I don't understand where you are going with this. I can't wait until you tell me - your interpretations go much deeper than mine. How long have you studied? By the way - please note the italicized paragraph (I'm beaming). A wonderful friend on FR gave me instructions and now I don't feel like such a dolt. I just noticed, however, that there is no space betwen the two paragraphs on the post while I do have the separation on my copy. Any ideas?

[Seven_0]

I just stopped by the house for a minute and noticed your post. I will respond later, but for now take a look here;

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1569737/posts

[Ping-Pong]

I just stopped by the house for a minute and noticed your post. I will respond later, but for now take a look here;

Seven and Diego - Thank you both - your help is much appreciated

I feel like I can play with the big kids now

[Seven_0]

I know that the wheat will be separated from the chaff at harvest (goats from sheep, etc.)but I don't understand where you are going with this.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Since scripture is able to foresee the things that God would do, it seemed to me that the Old Testament would have some clues to the rapture, if there is a rapture.

Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The wife is typical of the church; therefore it seemed to me that Ruth and Ester would be a good place to start looking for evidence of the rapture.

You asked me how long I have been studying. I started looking at typology and structure more that 30 years ago. I realized that I could never grasp all of the scripture, life is to short, and so I decided to concentrate on the aspects of scripture that interested me. In particular I enjoy studying the numerical structure if the Bible and because the numbers are types, typology is part of that study.

I have only recently begun looking at Ruth and Ester, so I don’t have much confidence yet. It takes time. Here are some of my observations.

Notice that both Ruth and Ester were instructed to keep something of their mission secret by the person who is a type of Christ. I don’t know why, but I think that it is interesting. There were two harvests in Ruth 2:23. The barley harvest came first and it was at this time that Naomi sent Ruth to the threshing floor at night.

I think that we can distinguish the two harvests. In the first we see the separation of the grain form the ear and in the second we see the separation of the wheat from the tares, as I mentioned in my post number 61 on this thread.

It is also noteworthy the Boaz said unto Ruth “as the LORD liveth: lie down until the morning.” Boaz, is a type of Christ, the light of the World, and his coming brings in the new day

The six measures of barley jumped out at me, but even though I squint, I do not see anything yet. I can identify with Joshua.

Josh 13:1 Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the LORD said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed.

Seven

[Ping-Pong]

Hi Seven - It is good to hear from you again.

Josh 13:1 Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the LORD said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed.....I can identify with Joshua.

I understand - I'll be Joshette because I have such a long way to go. How wonderful to have all those years of study in your mind. I don't, so I take lots and lots of notes as my memory isn't great anymore. I hunger for learning His Word now and wish I had when I was young enough to retain it.

The six measures of barley jumped out at me, but even though I squint, I do not see anything yet

I don't see as deeply into this Book as you do so your interpretation is very interesting. As I told you before, I have enjoyed the "Number in Scripture" book by Bullinger, so when I see numbers I know they aren't inserted for no reason. The #6, the number of man, also marks Satan's number so why is it here? What does the 6 measures of barley mean? The sentence also "jumped" out at me.

On another subject, one I mentioned to you the other day,that might interest you (it's sort of rapture related):

In Daniel 3:1. Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.

Satan's number all over it so he is a type of anti-christ. Saddam Hussein is, or was, a type of anti-christ too and the parallels are amazing.

2:28.But there is a God in heaven That revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchad. what shall be in the latter days.......(today).

33.His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (iron and clay don't mix so this is where he was the weakest.)

Picture the statue of Saddam being toppled. Where did it fall? At the toes. The king of Babylon fell.

4:23........and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him.

25.That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the MOST HIGH ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsover He will.

33....and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers,and his nails like birds' claws.

From the time the statue was toppled until Saddam was pulled out of the spider hole (serpent hole) it was about 7 months. Do you remember what he looked like? "hairs like eagles' feathers and nails like claws".

Father's word is amazing. Daniel soon goes from Babylon/Iraq to Persia/Iran - the next, and our current problem.

Chapter 3 of Daniel is full of symbology about Satan. - what do you think?

[ladyinred]

I guess I would call myself among the "pre wrathers." The scriptures clearly say that we are not appointed to wrath, but they do not say that about tribulation. In fact, quite the opposite.

[Ping-Pong]

I guess I would call myself among the "pre wrathers

I don't think I've ever heard that description but I agree with it. It is my understanding that if you don't fall for Satan's tricks during his tribulation and remain focused on God's Word you come through it. After all, God wouldn't be angry at us.

Then, the 7th trump sounds and the true Christ arrives and we are all changed into our spirit bodies - the good, the bad and the ugly. We just have to make it through Satan's "hour of tribulation".

[ladyinred]

The spell check on FR had never heard of pre wrathers before either. :-)

[Ping-Pong]

It's a great word you've coined - we can be the first members.

[ladyinred]

Thanks for being brave enough to join up with me! :-)