Posted on 02/19/2007 7:44:21 PM PST by Alex Murphy
TONY EASTLEY: Reports of a possible re-unification of the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches, have been played down by the senior international body co-ordinating relations between the two.
A newspaper in London claimed senior Bishops on both sides are considering repairing the split that occurred at the time of Reformation.
But a South African Anglican Bishop, who co-chairs the special bi-lateral body reportedly behind the move, has told AM any possible merger is a long way off.
Europe Correspondent Rafael Epstein.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN: There's been an official dialogue for 40 years, and in 2000 the then Pope John Paul the Second and the then Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, established the International Anglican Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission.
Its co-chair is South African Bishop David Beetge. He travelled to Rome late last year with the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, to meet Pope Benedict.
DAVID BEETGE: All we have said are there are certain areas, after 40 years of theological study, where we believe we have a degree of compatibility and agreement.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN: The idea that the two churches would actually merge, is this the sort of thing that the Commission's actually been looking at?
DAVID BEETGE: Not at all, not at all. Those areas where we have reached, or have a degree of, of agreement. That's all the document is.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN: The worldwide Anglican Church has just wrapped up a meeting in Tanzania, trying to accommodate tensions over homosexuality and female priests. Some Bishops even refused to take Communion with those they consider had taken the Church's liberal teachings too far.
This Commission, working with both churches, is the most important group of clerics working on non-theological issues. It was said in The Times newspaper to have written a report urging many in the Anglican Church should move their allegiances to Rome.
Bishop Beetge says the Commission has recommended nothing of the sort.
DAVID BEETGE: We didn't even come to that conclusion. From what I've heard of the article, it may well have been just, taking it far too far.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN: And I saw on your website, you've got female clergy in, under you in South Africa. The idea that somehow you would merge and become part of the Catholic Church, that's a bit absurd...
DAVID BEETGE: No. That has not been, it's not been on the agenda.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Bishop Beetge's co-chair on the Commission is the Catholic Archbishop of Brisbane, John Bathersby. He's quoted in News Limited newspapers this morning saying the merger is "longed for by Catholics and Anglicans, that separation interferes with our mission, and that there are no insurmountable hurdles to a merger".
Bishop Beetge isn't so sure.
Some of the quotes appear to support this idea of a union between the two Churches, but that's not how you understand his thinking?
DAVID BEETGE: No, I mean I think any form of union is a very long journey and process.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Is it ever going to happen, do you think?
DAVID BEETGE: I think unity is a long, long, long, long, long journey. Of course we pray for it, of course we long for it. I, I would be surprised if I saw anything in my lifetime.
TONY EASTLEY: South African Anglican Bishop Beetge ending Rafael Epstein's report.
It's not a merger, it's an acquisition. Imagine investment bankers' fees ... eh?
The announcement may be "premature" and probably leaked by somebody who doesn't want it to happen, but I think this will probably take place. I honestly don't know what else the orthodox members of the Anglican/Episcopal church can do.
I met some Africans recently and I thought that there was no way that people who were so good (although a little short on historical knowledge) could survive in the church of Schouri or whatever her name is. I suspect that even the current Archbishop of Canterbury may be rethinking some of his positions...Maybe he got sick of looking at the picture of the two elderly deans, crowned with wreaths of laurel, getting "married."
Similar story:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1787450/posts
"The text of the document, without the official Vatican and Anglican commentaries, was posted Feb. 19 on the Web site of the organization Anglican Mainstream.
While it set out dozens of activities Catholics and Anglicans can and should undertake together -- -- the document said the prospect of full unity appears further off than it did in 2000."
There are lots of other options - 40,000+, if some Catholic apologists are to be believed :)
But seriously, there are the "Continuing churches" and the Reformed Episcopal Church, among others, that they could shift to w/o leaving Anglicanism/Episcopalianism.
As I understand it, Anglicans prefer not to think of themselves as Protestants (that is, as inspired by Luther or anyone else in that line), but as a sort of special English branch of Catholicism. I think this is nonsense, of course, because you can't be Catholic while rejecting Rome, and nationality or language group does not make you a separate church. But that seems to be the belief of many of the more traditional groups among them, and hence they are unlikely to go to a Protestant church as a solution. We are also talking about the group "migration" of a church in this case, and not individuals, if I understand it right.
So in terms of what the more orthodox, traditional Christians among them are going to do in the future, I think their options are pretty limited. The "continuing" churches are under heavy attack from the raving heretics who have taken over the mother church, partly because the heretics fear the loss of the property, and as a result the continuing churches are often very embattled and hardly an ideal environment for faith, particularly in places like Africa. I think some of the African leaders felt that the flaky Anglican/Episcopal church leadership wouldn't impose its ways on them, but it appears that, as usual, the raving heretics want everybody else either to do as they do or at least give approval to it.
"I think this is nonsense, of course, because you can't be Catholic while rejecting Rome,..."
Oh, I wouldn't go that far, L! :)
I think it's a possibility that some of the Anglican provinces that have rejected the ordination of homosexuals and women reunification may occur but for the whole of the Anglican Church to reunite is a distinct impossibility.
When Benedict XVI was first elected there seemed to be a great deal of discussion surrounding the Traditional Anglican Communion seeking reunification under Archbishop John Hepworth of Australia. That talk seems to have fallen out of the spotlight.
The talk was they wanted a Personal prelature similar to Opus Dei (purgoratively called an Anglican Rite).
It got to the point that Archbishop Hepworth (because he is an ex-Catholic Priest and married) said he would resign as Primate if it would facilitate reunification.
I wonder if this might be a misunderstanding of those talks, which impacted roughly 2MM Anglicans throughout the world.
Interesting, if only because most of the "we're not merging" news stories I read were in Australian sources....
Indeed, that's one current of Anglicanism. But then you have the more evangelical wing, the liberal wing, neither of which will look Romeward anytime soon. Lot of different currents there. Plus, even within the Anglo-Catholic fold, there's a school of thought that holds "we are Catholic already" and so sees no need for corporate reunion.
FWIW as a Roman looking at this, I think the *entire* Anglican body reuniting with Rome is a pipe dream. The Communion is shattered now, probably for good, and sionnsar has said that he thinks the compromise that has held these disparate elements together for 400+ years is effectively dead. There simply isn't enough cohesion at the institutional level, and Abp. Williams can't provide it.
What is happening is that some movements that come out of Anglo-Catholicism are seeking corporate unity with Rome (e.g. Hepworth and the Traditional Anglican Communion). Others will proceed on as continuing churches, etc.
It is my understanding that the talks are ongoing. I believe that after the initial flurry of news, the TAC quite deliberately imposed a code of silence on its dealings with Rome so to keep everything out of the press and so as not to jeopardize the negotiations.
If that's the case, then that means that these "leaks" IMO are coming from sources sympathetic to Rome's position in negotiations, and not from sources synmpathetic to the Anglicans' position.
From my understanding of the Vatican and of Italians, that's not a bad hypothesis. :)
But I don't think the most recent news tidbits are even referring to the TAC...they seem to have been concerned with official Canterbury Anglicanism (which the TAC already separated from), and it also seems to have been more a headline writer's creativity than any solid news.
Personally, I think this whole story has been spun out of whole cloth.
It failed and it's way too late for that anyway. The Anglican Church is on a death watch. Thanks to the homosexuals and womyn activists it has been completely turned upside down and the ever dwindling numbers of adherents are already looking towards Rome.
It's a huge irony that sodomites and liberals are providing the principal impetus for ecumenism and reunion with Catholicism. They've done more to bring people into the Catholic Church than decades of discussions and committees.
God writes straight with crooked lines, as they say.
I don't think the whole Anglican church could possibly reunite with Rome, certainly not with the way one branch has gone off the rails on moral issues. But the more I thought about it, the more I could see the logic of at least some of them wanting to get back to Rome.
These churches must currently be feeling very alone in the world. The African ones must be particularly distressed, because they are under attack from outside forces - ranging from the Muslims to anti-religious, socialist governments - and from forces in their own church, that is, the liberals of ECUSA and whatever its Brit equivalent is. So it would benefit them enormously to tie into the larger Church and would probably provide them with at least somewhat better protection for their flocks.
And of course, for the Catholic Church, it would be great. It would consolidate African Christians, thus making it possible to present a more unified response to challenges.
It sounds as if they do not want to be part of a special "rite" or jurisdiction, but simply to come in, keeping what they have, but with their bishops being responsible to Rome. I wonder what the administrative aspect of that would be.
BTW, I met some of these African Anglican bishops recently, and they were scholarly and impressive people. Of course, they also had those wonderful African accents and that incredibly charming manner Africans have, so they'd be a social plus to us all!
Interesting theory. You may be right. It had an explosive headline but there was nothing to back it up with.
God writes straight with crooked lines, as they say.
Absolutely! And no better example of that than the Cross! :)
Dear livius,
My understanding is that much (most?) of the African Anglicans are evangelicals, and the least likely to reunite with the Catholic Church.
sitetest
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