Posted on 02/01/2007 7:21:14 AM PST by pjr12345
Total Depravity of Man
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverence of the Saints
This is an open thread to discuss the calvinistic concept of Total Depravity of Man.
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
Justice prevents God from judging me for Adam's sin.
It would be useful to those of us who aren't Calvinists for those of you who are to present a clear, concise, comprehensive definition of what you mean by "Total Depravity".
Entirely too much exchange of words on this forum consists of folks arguing against positions that nobody actually holds.
Ping!
Are you saying that Calvinists don't believe in Original Sin??
I speak for myself only
Are you saying that there is some part, some corner of man's makeup - physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, etc - that even today isn't impacted and affected by Adam's sin, and thus remains in an "unfallen" state?
And why can't we inherit righteousness too?
If our parents were Christians who have been cleansed from all sin (1 John 1:7,9; Heb. 7:25), then there would be no sin to inherit, so we would be born pure!
psalm 53:2-3God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Or in extended form, all of Ezekiel 18.
Total Depravity or Total Inability
The doctrine of original sin that resulted from the Fall is a very humbling doctrine according to the Reformers. They believed that Adam's rebellion and corruption, imputed to and inherited by all mankind, left him in such a state that he was the enemy of God and served only his own sinful nature. "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.' " (Romans 3.10-12) While Arminius felt that man was only sick and weakened by sin, the Reformed faith teaches that man is dead in sin, that is has no desire to turn to God, that his master is Satan - "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (Ephesians 2.1-3)
The natural man who is dead in sin regards the Gospel message as foolishness. How often we see the same reaction from some of our relatives and friends. God must revive the sinner spiritually and make him alive before he will turn to God. This is called Regeneration, which is the work of the Holy Spirit in a man's heart (see Ezekial 36 above). "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1.18) "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2.10-14) "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Ephesians 2.4-5)
According to the correct doctrine of original sin, man does not have the ability to do good or the goodness in himself to choose to please God. This should be obvious to the careful scholar from the above passages, and the wise man will not deny what the Holy Spirit guided the Apostle Paul to write - "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God...there is none who does good, no, not one." There are many verses in which God exhorts the sinner to turn to Him, to follow Him, to obey Him, to trust in Him, to receive His Son, but it would be wrong to assume that this implies that man has the ability to respond to these on his own. To deny this is to deny our utter dependency on God - "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above." (James 1.17)
For example, one of the most popular verses taken to represent the Gospel is in Revelations 3.20 - "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." For many this verse implies that each man has the ability to open the door, but the verse does not support this interpretation because two verse later it says "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Why does Christ say this; are we the one who take credit for hearing and responding to the Lord? Absolutely not, look at Matthew 13.11-15 - "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." Also look at a conversation between Peter and Christ - "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16.15-17) Also understand how dependent you are on the Triune God - "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
Some in the visible church have denied the depravity of man. Others, such as Arminius, have bent this doctrine so that while all are fallen, all are given the possibilty of faith and are given enough grace to make them able to will and do good, so that after all none are left totally depraved. Again, they continue to put salvation at the disposal and glory of man, and it leads us to our next topic:
Ro 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--
(RSV)
Drat!
You beat me to it!
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
The position is neither Calvinist or Arminian....Original sin applies to all - we are all fallen
Why would God need to Look to see?
If all are born total depraved- No need to look to see
Where in this verse is it necessarily referred that any one is born wicked?
There is no biblical argument that can be made opposing total depravity.
Then make one FOR it!
Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ro 1:28 - Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Here's a good start
In a nutshell:
I'm not a sinner because I sin, I sin because I am a sinner.
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